The Morning After
Man I am a little tired this morning, but it was definitely a fun night last night and even better this morning picking up my Washington Post with the banner headline The Post was hoping they would never have to print: “GOP reclaims Virginia”. Of course The Post is already demanding that McDonnell should raise taxes in their editorial this morning because apparently a 59%-41% trashing of the candidate who supported raising taxes wasn’t quite enough of a statement from the Virginia voters for The Washington Post….
I did happen to catch Hoffman on TV for the first time at some point last night and let’s just say he was not exactly lighting up the screen and could see why some voters might have gone against him. But all credit to him for making it a race and this seat will definitely be on the top of the list for a takeover next year.
It’s been a while since Republicans have had something to cheer about on an Election Night, so don’t let NY23 get you down and savor the victories that did occur.
On a side note, the law allowing gay marriage in Maine did get overturned last night. I personally do not consider that a “Republican” issue, but I am sure it will make social conservatives happy.
Since I did get up so late this morning, I haven’t had a chance to go back through the predictions to determine a winner. Will try to get to that this evening. If someone wants to go back and recommend a winner, you won’t get any complaints from me.
uno
So does this mean we can finally send more troops to Afghanistan?
Not a sweep but a great day for the GOP
It’s been a while since Republicans have had something to cheer about on an Election Night, so don’t let NY23 get you down and savor the victories that did occur.
Truer words have not been spoken. Even CNN is saying that this is a big day for the GOP. Although it is funny seeing them say in the same breath that independents who were instrumental in electing BHO went for Republicans by wide margins, but it was not a referendum on BHO.
Let’s not fight amongst ourselves today. Let’s celebrate.
Just got off a long call with my Dem buddy in Philly. Interesting observsations.
More later.
5 – MD, the GOP did well in PA yesterday, did they not? Something about the Supreme Court, i think.
Let Bill Owens enjoy his one year in Congress. I’ll take what we have for now.
7 Just like Burris now we are gonna have to pay ANOTHER unworthy joker a lifetime of pension for a year on light/no real work. Accountability for politicians is needed.
With regards to NY 23, how bout we get a candidate this time who is an actual resident of the district and someone who doesn’t have the charisma and personality of a coffee table.
Just like Burris now we are gonna have to pay ANOTHER unworthy joker a lifetime of pension for a year on light/no real work.
Assuming that you are young, being a cr@ppy congresscritter might no be a bad career move. Beats working for a living.
It’s a great sign for Virginians that they elected a guy who won’t be following the Washington Post’s master plan for prosperity. The WAPO’s lamentations about the outcome of any election are likely a positive sign for America.
Looks like according to Hoffman’s website that he is already gearing up for next year.
My post mortem:
Jersey was an amazing coup. To me that was the most important race that shows even corrupt and entrenched Democratic machines can be beat. It shows the GOP can survive outside the South. It bodes well for Simmons in Connecticut against Dodd. It bodes well for Toomey in PA and Castle in Delaware.
VA was a wipe out. Down ballot races. The legislature. A tsunami. Yes Obama there is a message there. Ignore it at your peril.
NY-23 didn’t work out. I made my point clear I would have rather retained the seat with Dede than give the seat to the Democrats. But since she endorsed a Democrat and showed SHE was not interested in party unity I am now just as happy she didn’t win either. I hope the GOP can come up with a good candidate to defeat Owens in 2010, not necessarily Hoffman.
PPP and Rasmussen did a great job in NJ. They were on the money. PPP blew NY-23 but congressional races are notoriously harder to poll.
I believe that congressmen actually do need more than one year of service to get a meaningful pension.
However, Burris gets senate floor privileges for life. That will be interesting to see him in ACORN gear lobbying his “buds”.
Hoffman gearing up again.
Oh please. Can we actually run a conservative in that district next time who is a decent candidate? A Republican who isn’t a flaming liberal or one who has the personality of a pet rock.
If so, we take the seat easily.
No, don’t run Hoffman. Run someone who actually lives in the District. And, they should get rid of that rule which allows County Chairs to pick nominees in special elections. The voters should do that. Had that applied here, the GOP would not have lost this seat.
Just in: James Carville just released a new poll showing Governor Corzine has solidified his lead and now leads Christie by 5 points.
Knova,
Yes, FWIW. However, let me focus on the observations from my D buddy who works for the party in philly.
1. NJ was a great win but Corzine was damaged goods. According to him, it DOES hurt Obama and they know it.
2. However, the win in VA is of equal importance because the theory of a lasting alignment shift is off the table. They knew 8 weeks ago that this race was a loss. In the last 2 weeks, it became apparent to the admin that a blowout was imminent. That was the reason for the last ditch effort from Obama. It was for PR purposes. The data suggests that Obama lost a lot of support in NOVA, which they were counting on to be a permanent stronghold. The down ticket races were a complete disaster. This was the worse-case scenario come true.
3. On its’ own, they could use the excuse that NJ was an isolated situaion with a damaged goods Gov who they desperateely tried to help and in the end, Obama could claim to have cut the margin of victory from double digits to 5. Virginia ruins that theory. They can’t point to NJ as a success (spin) because of the blowout in VA.
4. As for HC reform, he thinks it is off the table. Bear in mind, he supports many of the measures that Obama and HRC (in the past) have brought to the table. He can’t believe the timing of Obama. This is exhibit A why he did not like him and supported HRC. His arrogance knows no end. The blue dogs will NOT go along with Pelosi who, alone, even without Obama, could cost them their seats.
5. As for NY 23, he just laughed at that. “Only you Republicans could ruin a sure thing”. He agrees that in 10, it will probably revert. The conventional wisdom floating around the Dem halls these days is that they will lose approx 20 seats in the House and hold the Senate even. That his opinion, I think that is fantasy island for them.
6. Specter is in deep trouble according to everything they see and hear. No one, Dem or Rep, trusts the guy. You don’t win elections when both parties find you distasteful. He repeated his admiration for Toomey saying he would support Soto. It will be much harder to brand him as a right wing nut job.
He was funny and gracious but told me that we should not be too confident. A year is an enternity in politics and anything can happen.
Kudos to SUSA for nailing both governor’s races right on the number.
Gay Marriage has now FAILED in all 31 states where it has been VOTED on.
The 5 states that allow gay marriage, did it through the courts and legislatures.
When the voters speak they say NO.
Tim V,
That is clear.
If the NY GOP does not dump DeDe today, they will not win the Ny-23 in 2010.
I like Hoffman, but we need new blood. Not living in the district is ignorant.
MD, your friend seems to have a real handle on things – a realist.
One thing though. Did I read into it that Dems will try to brand Toomey as a nut job? I know he said “try” but that is gonna be awful tough. Toomey is a solid fiscal pro growth guy who stays completely away from social issues. In my view, a perfect fit for the way the winds are blowing.
#15 — I agree Phil. Couldn’t believe this morning catching up with the overnight commentary how some people are going to let what happened in NY-23 ruin the great night. The NRCC and NY GOP screwed up plain and simple. We all knew DeDe would have been almost as pure a Democrat with an R by her name. Just donate to the candidate from now on until the NRCC and the NRSC cleans their act up. No more trusting the committees to make candidate appointments. Leave that up to the people. They screwed up and they better learn from their mistakes and take into primary consideration that we’re not going to be standing by idly anymore. I can’t underscore the magnitude of how big the Jersey win is and how solid a victory it was. It wasn’t really close. Obama may have become the first president in history to be a first year lame duck. The damage to Obama caused by New Jersey is just massive. We have a couple of election cycles coming up where conservatives should make some huge gains in the Congress and Senate. Time to start getting ready for those.
Tim,
Andrew Sullivan has not conceded Maine yet.
know Hoffman is popular here but he had his chance. He got support and money and press and a two way race and still lost. But he is more conservative than the district, he is an outsider, and he has zero charisma. Frankly, I think any mainstream Republican from the district can beat Owens. But the lesson here now is let the people of the district decide.
“Andrew Sullivan has not conceded Maine yet.”
It’s not that close. Almost 53-47 with 87% of the vote counted.
Yes 266324 52.75%
No 238595 47.25
I think the key for the GOP needs to be a strong emphasis on the economic fiscally conservative issues with little or no emphasis on social issues except in the south.
Well we lost Hoffman and CA-10 which sucks but here is the scorecard from I what I have seen on the web.
1, Nj-Va Gov,
2. Michigan State Senate- GOP Pickup
3. GOP wins back control of the PENN Supreme Court
4. GOP wins back control of Nassau County- Long Island NY
5. Gay Marriage dumped in Maine. Tim Gill and David Geffen seeing Red.
6. Obamacare finished
Any add ons?
andrew sullivan is an idiot.
Any add ons?
Comment by Jason T
In VA McDonnell won strongly in 5 congrsesssional areas where blue dogs won.
26. Jason I disagreed with you before, but know I man up and say you are right.
DeDe was just awful, but Hoffman is done.
What happened in PA supreme court- I think it was MDEFL that said it has huge implications for redistricting in the state
It was a great night. I know there is some disappointment and frustration regarding the NY23 but folks we have a conservative governor in NJ. Let’s not let that huge happening escape us. One step at a time. I do agree with Tina from her many posts last night that Steele must go. We need an energetic conservative to continue what was begun last night.
Way to go folks in Virginia and New Jersey.
31. Cool Tim. But I am a little leary about the Federal races after NY-20 and 23. hopefully its just that NY is a cesspool
Sharon, someone has to take the fall on DeDe Jeffords.
900k???? Sessions must go, we need a new House Campaign Chair for 2010.
20 and 21 – Again, explain to me why it is important in the big scheme of things. Don’t get me wrong, the states have the right to define what marriage is and I don’t have a problem with that. I just have never heard a good reason why gays should not have the same rights as straight in that regard, and why anyone besides gays should care. In other words how does it personally affect others?
My solution to it is simply not recognize marriage, except as a religious entity/sacrament. Everything else should be contractual. That might make divorce a little harder and make people think a bit before they get themselves into a lasting relationship.
29 Jason T,
Here is an add on for you.
In Frederick Md (2nd biggest city in state) the Dem candidate for mayor (wqo wasa SEIU / ACORN community organizer) was defeated by the GOP candidate 3,495 to 3283 with a 22% turnout.
Geez, if Obama would have made just one visit there, or at least trotted out VP Gaff Biden for a quick campaign swing to Frerderick…
GPO, the GOP woman won. The GOP now controls the PENN SCOTUS
Walt, the GOP also won in Greensboro, NC, but lost Charlotte.
Read Barone’s article today at Real Clear Politics. He links the Va vote to Va congressional districts. The two new freshman congressmen got to be sweating. In both their districts Deeds lost 61-39. Now, maybe they are telling themselves that it was a governor’s race and just local issues and that they are free to vote for Obamacare…..
Perhaps Nancy will allow them to vote no. After all, she can afford to allow 35 or blue dogs to cover their electoral butts voting no and still have enough votes to pass this crappy bill.
How does Pelosi determine who the lucky 35 will be? Will they have a lottery?
All eyes will be on 90 year old US Sen Lautenberg in NJ
29
Jason T,
And another add on is the GOP candiate for mayor in Atlanta finishing first (will be a run off I believe)
“GOP wins back control of the PENN Supreme Court”
Does that mean they will finally execute liberal icon Mumia?
Phil, its dead. The House will not vote on it, knowing the Senate will kill it.
Hey folks,
Remember Harry Reid was going to follow Corzine’s lead by “vaporizing” his opponent??
How did the “vaporizing” work out for Corzine? Pity. He could have saved his millions.
On a personal note, way to go folks in Maine for overturning the gay marriage proposition.
Walt is the Atlanta woman a Pubbie? Her run off opponent is a Black Panther
Jason,
They’ll try to ram it through anyway. You are thinking rationally. Nancy is thinking ideologically.
I forgot about the “vaporize” stuff from the Reid campaign. Yeah, Corzine was going to be their model. LOL
#50. Phil,
We all want that don’t we?
Big Losers last night.
1. Hoffman, one and done. I did not realize he lived outside his district.
2. PENN Trial Lawyers
3. NJ State Workers who will be pink slipped by christie
4. Gay Billionaires
5. Northern Virginia unions
6. Andrew Sullivan and any momentum Gay marriage ever had.
7. DeDe and her feeder Cattle Ass
8. NJ University Polling
9. INTRADE
Melvin won for the SC in PA. It will have no effect on Mummia, sadly. It could potentially affect redistricting but Justol is way more tied into that than I. He can handle that.
Strange local results where I live.
Phil, I hope Pelosi does. It will put DEMS votes on record.
Word is that Conrad and Dorgan from ND are done with Obamacare after seeing NJ.
JT,
You missed the biggest one of all:
President Barack Hussein Obama
Atlanta candidate Mary Norwood was a Republican years ago, but mentioned in her ad that she voted for Obama, Kerry, Gore and Perot.
The more interesting take away from her success so far, is that the black average voter in Atlanta wants the spending, corruption, nepotism to stop. They want a leader to support the police, fix the sewer systems, address crime around our universities (GA Tech and GA State). They are looking past color in this one.
The candidate in the middle, Lisa Borders,who was primed to take over, placed 3rd. She was the daughter of a civil rights leader. Now, she has to decide to either endorse the black in her or the female in her when throwing her support to Norwood or Reed. The pressure is on.
10. NARAL
MD, PENN Scotus is final say on Redistricting lines
I also would not put Hoffman as #1 (that should be Corzine) but he was a loser.
52.Big Losers last night.
1. Hoffman, one and done. I did not realize he lived outside his district.
2. PENN Trial Lawyers
3. NJ State Workers who will be pink slipped by christie
4. Gay Billionaires
5. Northern Virginia unions
6. Andrew Sullivan and any momentum Gay marriage ever had.
7. DeDe and her feeder Cattle Ass
8. NJ University Polling
9. INTRADE
10. NARAL
Obamacare is not going anywhere.
If they could not ram it through at the height of Obamamania in 2009, they are not going to get it through in an election year.
They’ll keep kicking the can down the road, because they have to keep their base and campaign funds alive.
All this talk of providing cover to blue dogs by allowing them to vote no is pure malarkey. Democrats own the HC turkey, and will get the blame for it. If and when people start looking for culprits to punish for it, it would not matter if an individual Dem congresscritter voted against it.
Yes Eph.
Abortion loses big with Pro-Life Christie and Bob Mac
11. Newt and Romney
Sam thank God for the Brave American people who townhalled in July to stop this marxist Bill.
12. Michael Steele (maybe top 5?)
Agreed Sam. It is especially true in the Senate because of clouture. Even if they vote no on the final bill, the R’s can use the cloture vote as a noose.
“HARRISBURG, Pa. – Republican Joan Orie Melvin won an open seat on the Pennsylvania Supreme Court on Tuesday , reclaiming a GOP majority there and leading her party to victory in most of the other appellate court contests on the statewide ballot.
With returns from 99 percent of the state’s 9,310 precincts, Melvin had 938,272 votes or 53 percent to Democrat Jack Panella’s 822,335 votes or 47 percent.
Republicans also won at least two of the four open seats on the Superior Court and both open seats on the Commonwealth Court.”
McHugh is trash. If he supported Hoffman, the GOP wins.
Now he is off to the Pentagon to kneepad Obama.
47 – Sharon, see my post 37. perhaps you can tell me why this is an important issue in national politics.
Yes, a good night in PA! The state ex-Philly is not liberal. Everone forgets that.
That is why 10 (a non-potus) year is going to be awesome in PA. I am telling everyone right now that Murtha is going down.
Ty Jason T
Winners?
The unborn, Palin, Pataki, S-USA, …
67. Thanks Jason.
Sharon, thanks, I must admit I went a bit over the top last night. It was a very long day for me, and I really could not post throughout the day – like I wanted. I still think STeele needs to go, however.
I apologize if I offended some here last night.
69. Dont take the bait Sharon.
Even we lost in Blue State NY, the tone of the night is that all our big GOP wins were in Obama 2008 States.
Is Nassau county the Biggest in New York? The GOP did win that
Hoffman was not a loser last night.
Dede and the GOP elites were.
Lessons learned.
NYT and WAPO were HUGE losers for their endorsements.
heh
I wonder how Sen Webb is doing today?
HCR and C&T will not pass this year or next.
72. and those who chose not to live an alternative lifestyle
Did Silverfish blast SUSA on the Governor’s poll.
Pataki and Guliani need to man up and run in 2010. sick of them teetering
this thread is going to get ugly…
#
I am telling everyone right now that Murtha is going down.
Comment by MD — November 4, 2009 @ 9:14 am
MD, I agree with you there and also say Specter is going down.
The big loser was Flim Flam Fraud; Scarfarce, and the media cons that advocate D. Lite.
Is Nassau county the Biggest in New York? The GOP did win that
Comment by Jason T. — November 4, 2009 @ 9:16 am
r u sure about that ?
74. Tina, Sessions. His Ship.
Pete Sessions needs to go
20.”Gay Marriage has now FAILED in all 31 states where it has been VOTED on.
The 5 states that allow gay marriage, did it through the courts and legislatures.
When the voters speak they say NO.”
AMEN!!!
HCR;~~ Knowing that they will have their butts handed to them in 2010, the neo marxists WILL NOT give up on hellcare. It will only redouble their efforts, as they know this is their last hooorah on the matter after the next election anyway, so why not forge ahead?
Socialized medicine has always been the crown jewel of the collectivist mindset,and they see this as their last opportunity to fulfill their marxist/leninist wetdreams.
Eph, Why do you think DEEP BLUE, LIBERAL Maine rejected gay marriage?
As a matter of philosophy, I agree with Knova on the gay marriage issue.
However, I do have some thoughts on why they can’t win the people’s vote:
1. They shifted the focus from a matter of individual liberty to a civil rights issue. That fails the equivalency test. A lifestyle chouce cannot compare to what the AA’s went through for civil rights. They alienated a core Dem branch with that strategy.
2. They are becoming more vigilant and radical. Storming Mormon churches while leaving AA churces alone only illustrates their hypocrisy.
3. The bumper stickers that say “I didn’t vote on your marriage” just serve to drive away the 15% of R’s who would support them. They may not vote against them but many won’t vote for them.
In the end, a classic strategic error. Just my thoughts.
Firing Steele looks bad to Indy’s being Black.
I personally like steele, great speech at the Convention.
He gets kudos for winning 2 Gov races.
When the voters speak they say NO.”
AMEN!!!
Comment by Eph “BANNED AGAIN” Rove — November 4,
Sometimes twice.
See CA!
88. HD,
Because the people of Maine know that marriage is not for those who chose to live alternative lifestyles that is in direct contrast to G-d’s word.
My top ten:
1. Cardcheck. (McDonnell actively campagned against it)
2. Obama. (”Wasn’t watching results” so it may not count.)
3. Gay marriage. (0-31)
4. Carpetbaggers (Hoffman)
5. Trojan horses (Dede)
6. Millionaires buying races. (Corzine)
7. Democracy Corpse (Carville)
8. Bogus poll experts (Nate Silver, bombed on the Maine call)
9. Obama. Again. (Five campaign stops for Corzine)
10. Pelosi. (Good luck with the spooked Blue Dogs and Yellow Dogs)
The radical Gays have become militant. I can not support gay marriage.
Yea, I don’t think Steele is going anywhere.
Jason T, Steele is the root of the problem. The Rs need better leadership.
How about a winner?
Polaris – He nailed NJ. Of course, he, like all of us, got Hoffman wrong. However, his redemption is complete.
Polaris is the man!
Steele appears weak. He does no get credit for wins in NJ and VA last night. Had nothing to do with him or his vision. I think (hope) he will be gone by early next year. Reps don’t need a wishy-washy guy like him leading efforts in such an important year.
92. Que Wes and Chek…
The sun is shining just a little bit brighter this morning in VA!!
I am still just stunned that Christie got outside the margin of fraud.
Its too bad about Hoffman, but I am convinced now that even had Hoffman not gotten in the race, ScozzaTheHutt would have lost anyway. It would have been a different set of voters, but conservatives would have stayed home and Owens would have won on a low turnout. Dede was just that awful of a candidate. So a least we didn’t have the scar of her being the GOP standard bearer in that race going down in flames.
Next time, the people will choose in the primary.
Jason T – this is the last i saw
County Executive Thomas Suozzi is locked in an extremely close race with Republican challenger Edward Mangano after voters went to the polls Tuesday simmering with anger over taxes and the economy.
With all precincts reporting, Suozzi, a Glen Cove Democrat, leads Mangano, a Republican from Bethpage, by 237 votes
93. LOL! good stuff!
and dont forget …NARAL/Planned Parenthood!
Tina,
There are about 15% of R’s, with a libertarian streak, who would support them but they have gone out of their way to alienate them.
In the end, that is why they keep losing the vote. It is not just the AA community although they clearly have alienated them as well.
Tina firing Steele does not solve Boehner.
Give it to Pence and fire up the engines.
MD:
My predictions are:
NJ, Rep wins by 5
Va, Rep wins by 18
NY-23, Rep loses by 5
Let me know if I come close
I still think liberalism is a mental disorder.
See Tina sometimes fool’s gold can turn into real gold…..8)
I’m kinda sad we won’t be getting like 10 polls a day now.
You did great TG!!!
100 Darrell well said. I was floored by the fact Hoffman did not live in the District, sadly I did not know until this morning.
I could possibly support Civil unions, but not gay marriage.
The libertarian in me does not care what they do in their bedrooms, howver. I just do not think they can call it marriage and demand benefits from it.
Hey Brandon,
You should be proud of the work you did for the Christie campaign. I know that making all those calls can be mind numbing (I have done it myself) but it is that blocking and tackling that wins elections.
I have a prediction. We wont have a visit from Alan or Keyboring or Bonncaruso or several other drive by posters for several days. Troll infestation free.
Now that Corzine is a lame duck, his number 1 priority is to pass gay marriage in NJ.
Brandon congrats on Jersey. Go take down the Statue of Stalin in downtown Newark.
I had predicted a Christie win, jason. It is still fool’s gold though – just wait for the next Presidental election.
What about the “visits” from the plants…
Tina,
That was a point I missed. They actually have a majority of Americans who would have supported Civil Unions. They got greedy and went for the whole pie. Now, they really can’t go backwards.
Brandon wont fly. NJ legislators saw Maine
105. Wow, I bet you win.
GM,
They will be here to crow about 23 and to claim that NJ and VA had nothing to do with Obama.
Tina
I kinda remember a lot of post’s with “fools gold” in them. Exactly when did you get on the NJ republican express?
Take a look at red VA.
http://www.sbe.virginia.gov/cms/Election_Information/Election_Results/2009/November_General_Election.html
114. He better hurry!
116. I know you did….but you were (rightfully so) not very optimistic…
I am still ticked about the NY-23. I called the C4 Growth polling and the other partisan polling out. It still ticks me that under Steele we pee away House seats.
BTW – Garamendi will be sworn in today. The march to Obamacare moves one step closer.
#122. I recall that on every NJ thread since January.
OBAMACARE IS DEAD!!!
The lesson from last night was that Dems in Red states are vulnerable. It is doubtful that Reps will gain in blue states next year. NJ was an anomaly. Corruption and a bad economy sunk Corzine. If not for those, he would have been easily re-elected.
So this is good because I think it puts pressure on Dems in red states to distance themselves from the Axis of Liberals (Pelosi, Reid, Obama). This will now slow down their agenda and/or push some Dems to the center which is good for the country in the long run.
The real question is “Will the Dems learn from last night’s lesson?”
110…well…like most districts, it is all choppy and doesn’t follow any logical borders. In fact, Hoffman did live kind of with the district all around him, but within a penisula of another district that jutted up into NY-23. But yeah, that was a downer for his chances. It does appear that Scozza endorsing the dem had just enough impact.
Tina got onboard with the late polls showing Christie had weathered the Corzine surge. I can’t blame anyone for not really believing considering all the prior disappointments in NJ.
Where is Cory?
Where is HCR?
Are we going to save the earth with C&T?
Gary Maxwell, about a week ago – I was just worrried about the MOF. I said a ballot box win by Christie – but the Corzine with the courts steals it. – was my biggest concern.
WHY ARE WE STILL IN IRAQ?????????
Chris Christie won Ocean County by more than Jon Corzine won Essex, and he won Monmouth by more than Corzine won Hudson. Combined, Christie carried the two shore counties by 134,267 votes, while Corzine carried the two Democratic machine counties by 115,783. Christie won a third Democratic machine county, Middlesex, by 5,000 votes.
Christie won five western New Jersey counties by about 130,000 votes – including a 45,000 vote win in his home county, Morris, which delivered a greater plurality than Corzine won in Newark. (In 2005, Corzine won Newark by more than Douglas Forrester won Morris.)
Five western New Jersey counties gave Christie a plurality of about 130,000 votes. Christie held Corzine to a 4,000 vote win in South Jersey. Corzine’s Camden County margin was about 17,000; he won it by about 32,000 four years ago.
http://www.politickernj.com/wallye/34793/ocean-and-monmouth-are-new-essex-and-hudson
I can say I got on it when:
Corzine had the toll gaffe.
I screamed at Christie to quit playing Prevent – I called him Cheeseburger here.
Obama visited late in the game – The Campaign Spot made a credible claim that each time the Obumbler visited, Corzine #s went down.
The Sock Puppet aka Daggett was fading.
“The real question is “Will the Dems learn from last night’s lesson?”
Let’s hope not. Daily Kos is all about how it’s no pox on HIM.
***Forgot, one more thing, reading Brandon’s posts also convinced me.
Tina is right. Fraud was her reasoning in NJ as with her sources.
Warranted.
“NJ was an anomaly. Corruption and a bad economy sunk Corzine.”
Why is that an anamoly? Corruption and bad economy will sink anyone, Dem or Rep. Is there any reason why this scenario will not play in PA, OH, MI, IL, WI, and a host of other “blue” states in 2010?
People are pissed, Independents are antsy. Why should any Dem feel safe?
Where is Tommy Boy. He was here shilling for Corzine at least until polls opened.
#141. Obviously Corzine was going to win because the exit polls showed Obama with a 57% approval.
I saw de ja vu of MN and WA state governor’s race in 2004. I also worried about the NJ Courts – which would have done Corzine’s bidding.
Sorry, if I was down a bit, but the Rs have not effectively responded to ACORN (funding ban will soon lift); union thuggery; voter fraud/abuse.
And I always called out Corzine here as the marxist professor. The # 1 target on my list.
Now, I move to Spectacle and Reid.
“NJ was an anomaly. Corruption and a bad economy sunk Corzine.”
There might be a lot of anomalies happening.
I still apologize for what I said last night on the other thread, if I offended about the nY 23.
Daggett seemed to run best in the Republican counties, but I think he took more from Corzine.
Tina, agreed. The gOP model cannot be win outside the MOE to defeat ACORN.
There will be many nail biters next year, tehy must counter it.
Tommyboy apologized last night for his bad predictions, he also haid Deeds in single digits
69…Knova…if you will read my remark again I begain with “on a persona note”.. It may not be important on an national level,but that and pro-life are two very big issues with me when considering a candidate to support.
Tina, I didn’t mean for you to have to defend yourself against all comers and scorekeepers…..I was just trying for a clever comment on the fool’s gold real gold thing..
And if anybody suggests that I was shilling for Corzine, we will have a WAHHH!! (Serpent head’s remarks for war).
Jason, i got your remark, it was cute.
Ok now that we got rid of Corzine, my own new particular target is Dodd. I would love to retire him.
I still will eat the Cheesburer today for Christie after I take my Zantax.
Good day gang for now.
I am still in shock at some of the margins he got in some counties.
#141. Obviously Corzine was going to win because the exit polls showed Obama with a 57% approval.
Yeah, I kinda went nuts with that one……as if Obama didn’t have 57% or more in NJ the whole year Christie was ahead.
Lets see…at 46/43/8, it appears Rasmussen was the closest on NJ which was 49/45/6
It is obvious that 3rd party candidates cannot win unless they are former D’s or R’s.
I hate to say it as a Right Winger, maybe we should leave NY alone, and hope they have the sense not to run DeDe clones.
Where is McHugh? Weasel
I just do not think they can call it marriage and demand benefits from it.
But the question is why not. The majority of gays that I know are simply people trying to lead a life. We complain when the MSM calls us racist just because there are in fact some racist people who have views that are similar to ours. Yet many are ready to paint all gays as being flamboyant and radical.
Eph doesn’t want anyone to take the bait (and MD you did give an explanation, which makes you a brave soul) because he knows that the only defense of it is rabbinical law, which eph himself probably does not follow to a T. As for Christians, the namesake of our religion was silent on the issue, but was very tough on adultery and divorce. Why not ban those also. How many here who are against gay marriage or whateveer you want to call it are GUILTY of the other two?
Again, how does the gay marriage issue affect you personally and why is it important as a national issue?
OBAMACARE IS DEAD!!!
Comment by Eph “BANNED AGAIN” Rove —
SEE POST 87
H/T PP:
GOP Margin 1993 2009
Virginia 17.38 17.46?
New Jersey 1 4
If gay marriage comes on a ballot here after Corzine shoves it through the legislature, I would probably vote against gay marriage, but I really wouldn’t be distraught if it passed.
Watched Bill Sammmons this morning and he said that a lot of people in NY 23 didn’t like that national theme Hoffman adopted. They wanted someone who represented them in Congress instead of a symbol of a greater national cause. I guess the lesson from last night is that at the end of the day people want to know what a candidate will do for them.
I really don’t have a dog in the gay marriage fight. I have been happily married to the same woman for 28 years. The thing that we need to be aware of is that where the gay marriage issue is being voted down when brought to a ballot, it is winning by smaller and smaller margins. I can only go by what I see with my kids and is that younger people don’t care about the issue. Brandon’s response is a pretty good indicator.
Gay marriage has lost at the ballot 31 out of 31. This is one issue where Frum is very wrong. Embracing gay marriage is not a winner. Better not to make it a party issue. Just let the people vote on it via initiatives.
Joe Trippi was actually acting sane last evening. That was how sobering the losses were. Dont believe that it was not heard in many purple and red districts. But I am betting the progs double down. And that may create a war in the Democrat caucus. Pass the popcorn.
It’s going to be passed eventually, it’s just a matter of when, not if.
Better not to make it a party issue.
That we can agree on.
69…Knova…if you will read my remark again I begain with “on a persona note”.. It may not be important on an national level,but that and pro-life are two very big issues with me when considering a candidate to support.
Comment by sharon
Exactamundo: Elevating and legitimizing sexual perversion by recognizing “gay” marriage is an insult to the entire culture.
Ask the romans what happens when a society decides to codify the acceptance of sexual degeneracy into law. It is a national issue.
Staying in the closet is one thing, but when they use the force of gubmint to force me to sanctify their behavior is another thing altogether.
knova
It will not stop with gay marriage. Let’s say they approve it. Soon gay couples will DEMAND that churches marry them or they will lose their tax exemption as Bob Jones University did for their policy banning people of different races to date. Then you will have the poligamy people step forward. It will be a mess and young people who now support gay marriage will reverse their position.
It’s gonna be passed anyway
Not here in Tx. I love my state. No state income tax, no nanny state, no gay marriage
Love this place. Not perfect but relative to blue states, it’s heaven.
I agree with Tina. Get rid of Steele. Support Civil Unions. Give them all or most of marriage benefits.Put that issue behind us.
#172. Maybe not in your lifetime, but yes, even in Texas, it eventually will pass.
I am not asking the government to sanctify anything, as that is not the government’s job. Sanctity is the province of religion. You have the right of association, or to not associate if you will with gays, blacks, liberals, or anyone else.
BTW, McDonnel and Christie did not run against the elites, establishment and the rest of the daily pap we hear from some quarters. They ran on solving economic and other problems people care about. Christie’s slogan was to make Jersey affordable again. Yes it is true that their solutions are conservative. But they didn’t run as the champions of conservatism vs. the DC elites. That kind of pap gets you ratings but it is not good politics.
If the gay community were serious about marriage they would partner with the Right to Life coalitions. They could advocate for more adoptions and thus less abortion. But that would mean working along side people of religion. Tough choice I guess ay??
Not in your lifetime.
I can live with that.
I agree with Phil, I dont see gay marriage here in my lifetime. If you are talking about a 100 years or something really long, hell I have not a clue. But not in the next 50 here.
The thing about young people, is that they age. They have kids and 401 K and start paying major taxes for stuff and start realizing how difficult it is to instill character and decency in your kids when the culture seems to be anything goes. They may have a nonchalance now, lets see in about 10 years.
It’s going to be passed eventually, it’s just a matter of when, not if.
Comment by Brandon —
Not if our side has anything to say about it, it won’t.Nothing is “eventual” no matter how much you want it to happen.
The leftist teachers have done a good job of brainwashing on this issue,but as the skulls full of mush mature, their attitudes will change.
The blacks and hispanics are opposed to this as well, and that is a growing demographic,offsetting the younger libertine generation.
Gay couples have legitimate greviences that can be addressed WITHOUT redefining marriage. I disagree with Brandon. I don’t think that gay marriage is a forgone conclusion. Besides, this whole thing is such a fad. I preferred gays when they were proud of their different lifestyle instead of all this bougeoisie nonsense they are doing now.
177 – from what I have seen, since for obvious reasons they can’t have kids of their own (at least the guys) gays are all for adoption. I am not sure that I am comfortable with that yet, as I am not sure how it affects the kids. Yes, even libertarian knova believes that the best environment for a child is one mother and one father living together.
I am not crazy about the idea of kids being raised in a gay couple environment. Kids need female and male role models. Single parent situation are not ideal either although sometimes they just can’t be avoided. I have seen this with many of my friends. Especially, little boys need a male figure.
“It’s going to be passed eventually, it’s just a matter of when, not if.”
Sounds like a Corzine supporter.
Again, how does the gay marriage issue affect you personally and why is it important as a national issue?
Comment by knova —
Anything that degrades the society that I live in, effects me personally, how could it not??
If you don’t think that codifying sexual degeneracy into law, isn’t a degradation, then there is nothing else to discuss.
DQ took the bait!
I am going to stop now. The point is, while we may classify the gay lifestyle as perversion (I still think that they are hardwired and can’t help it) we must also condemn other perversions to marriage such as divorce and adultery. One can argue that no fault divorce has done more to destroy the fabric of this country that gays ever did.
Thank you for an interesting discussion.
172. Maybe not in your lifetime, but yes, even in Texas, it eventually will pass.
Comment by Brandon
Just because you want it to, doesn’t mean it will happen.
We are 35% hispanic down here, and they in large despise the
idea of it, even while voting demokrat.
Well, the headlines are better than I expected. They are all about the Dems getting a wake up call.
The county map of Virginia looks very much like the 2004 national map, except of course for the overall huge margin of victory by the Republican. The only places with significant voter numbers that gave majorities to Deeds were larger cities. City dwellers all over this nation are addicted to the crack flowing from the government’s teat. All they know about Democrats is they give things away. So-called independents are coming to the stark realization that Democrats will completely ruin the nation’s finances with more giant giveaways that only nurture that addiction. Republicans can get a big win next year on the coattails of those unaffiliated voters with the simple caveat of, “Please don’t screw it up this time.”
GPO. A Conservative won a County Board Seat over a entrenched DEM in rat infested Westerchester County also.
186 – It’s OK eph. You are smart enough to not take the bait, because like a wily ol’ bass who has been caught and thrown back a couple of times, you know that you will just get reeled in and filleted.
DQ, please feel free to comment on divorce and adultery as important national issues.
I have made my point and we have kept it civil. Let’s celebrate the wins that actually count for something.
DQ talks about homosexuality as degenerate yet I am sure he thinks lesbian scenes are hot like most men.
yet I am sure he thinks lesbian scenes are hot like most men.
That’s differnt
Not true, on HHR we like hot blue on blue action.
Once again the candidate that is most visibly associated with the talk show hosts is defeated. Just like Romney was defeated. I wish they would all stick to political commentary instead of trying to play king makers.
Are we all forgetting that we now have the First Woman LT. Governor in NJ?
She will be another new face we can put on the Networks. I believe this was the first year we have running mates and not just the Senate Majority being the Lt. Gov.
Right Brandon
Demonrats get whomped, market up 133 points. A message there somewhere.
No fault divorce has done more to destroy traditional marriage than anything. Women joining the workforce fundamentally changed the dynamics of traditional marriage. My gay friends had NOTHING to do with my first marriage falling apart.
One BIG item I think that has been overlooked in NY 23 is the fact that the D canidate was a retired Air Force officer. The largest employer up there is FT Drum (not just uniformed military but civil employees ie think SEIU) and there are lots of retired military in the area.
To be sure, Owens used his military background to huge advantage. A big big plus in this district!
Look for Lautenberg to resign, so Corzine can take his place.
After NY 23 and Il Duce getting re-elected in NYC, the ME decision is the one from last night that upsets me the most. I guess I just don’t understand why many straight people get so worked up over this. It affects my life in zero way whether Adam and Steve, who live next door and having hot, crazy, gay sex every night in their fabulously decorated bedroom are doing it while married or merely cohabiting. However, for them, it can be a very big deal.
I am more sympathetic to arguments about adoption, but even then I’m not sure why “a boy needs a male role model.” Why is that? If he doesn’t have one, might he grow up to be gay, too? Will he think that it’s ok for boys to do ballet rather than football (horror of horrors!)
I’d understand that boys in the inner cities need good role models. There, they see older males disproportionately joining gangs, going to prison, and abandoning children, rather than getting jobs, being good citizens, and being good fathers. That’s a different scenario than a kid living in a nice colonial in suburbia who happens to have two moms.
Here is a great article on how your personal liberty and freedom have a great deal to do with the quality of the Health Care you receive:
http://andrews.blogtownhall.com/2009/11/03/public_funding_is_government_control.thtml
Yes, liberty does really matter in the real world and not just in the abstract…
And if a conservative or Republican politican can articulate this in terms people can understand then shame on him – its not that hard to explain or grasp…
#197
She is pro-choice.
DQ talks about homosexuality as degenerate yet I am sure he thinks lesbian scenes are hot like most men.
Comment by Chekote
As usual, you would be wrong again. Carpet munchers are in the same catagory as salad tossers.
So who is going to the anti-Obamacare rally tomorrow????
On another note for the VA elections. Is there a breakdown of the percentages by gender who voted for McDonnell? It would be very interesting to see the size of any supposed gender gap.
Why is that? If he doesn’t have one, might he grow up to be gay, too?
That’s not the point. I don’t know what causes people to be gay. Some it is genetic. Others, like Anne Heche, is a choice. Boys need a male role model. I see the struggle that my single hetero female friens have raising boys but don’t experience the same with their daughters.
#205
Yeah, sure. I believe you.
Wasn’t corzine a senator before governor??
Cam Rep, it is the Gay Militants that bother everyone.
Those like Colorado Software Billionaire Tim Gill, who uses his money to threaten Legislators in Iowa and the Northeast to allow Gay Marriage.
I would add also, I think Owens will actually prove to be MORE conservative then Scuzzy as he is at least sane on foregin policy issues and national defense. I never got that impression from Scuzzy although here forte was being to the left of her party on domestic issues!
#210
Yes.
210 Yes D, elected in 2000 after spending 100 Million to win a open seat.
Gay Activists need to tone it down. Treating Gay Marriage like its 1964 Selma does not fly with America. Gays are not a race.
Hollywood over doing it does not help their cause either.
204…seriously. She is pro-choice? Damn.
The evil Baltimore Sun is saying the GOP still has no voice:
216 – does that mean that you would rather have a pro-choice Dem as Lt Gov instead of a pro choice Rep?
Here is a great article on how your personal liberty and freedom have a great deal to do with the quality of the Health Care you receive:
http://andrews.blogtownhall.com/2009/11/03/public_funding_is_government_control.thtml
Yes, liberty does really matter in the real world and not just in the abstract…
And if a conservative or Republican politican can articulate this in terms people can understand then shame on him – its not that hard to explain or grasp…
I think thats exactly what Christie and McDonnell did – translate these core principles into practical policies and successfully explained to voters how individual liberty, personal freedom, and limit government would benefit them in their personal lives and their states as a whole….
On the flip side, the voters there defintely said “NO” to the statist theory of ceding power and $$$ cash to the state in exchange for prosperity and security – clearly this theory of government and politics has failed for the upteenth time!
#212
Oh God, here we go with the pretense that the Dems was more conservative than the Republicans. I heard the same when JD Hayworth was defeated. Anyone who plans to go to Congress and put Pelosi in charge IS NOT RUNNING AS A CONSERVATIVE.
Wylie, your posts are getting shorter and easier to read. Seriously, congratulations on more effective communications.
#211–
“Gay militants?” Oh, please. How does using your money to lobby for policy change make you a “militant” if it’s over gay marriage, but not if you’re lobbying to ban abortion, or lower taxes, or get ramps for the handicapped put in in front of public libraries?
Absolutely no one in the gay community is trying to convert any straight people here. (Well, unless anyone is actually Brad Pitt or Angelina Jolie.)
If we’re all about defending marriage, then the movement should really be about limiting divorce, which harms FAR FAR FAR more children than gay marriage and denigrates marriage FAR FAR FAR more.
And if it’s about fighting sexual perversion, then the movement should be against all kinds of “non-traditional” hetero intercourse, which again happens FAR FAR FAR more often than any kind of gay sex.
#219
Christie said that he would make Jersey affordable again. Nothing about liberty vs. tyranny. Conservative vs. liberal. Nothing about Obama being the next Peron and all the rest of the daily conservative talk show host talking points.
#215–
Yeah, and those unborn, too. They’re not a race, either, so what’s all the fuss about?! The only people who ever have a legitimate gripe about discrimination are black people.
Cam rep doth protest too much.
Here is a key point too I think – to be a Republican, conservative or moderate, you MUST be centered on the core principles of individual liberty, personal freedom, free markets, Federalism, and limited government….
Your policies on issues must be derived from those ideals – they have been proven to work for people in the real world….
To the degree that we line up as “moderate” or “conservative” should be centered on the so-called “social” issues soley (I tend to be more liberatian on those ie less state regulation)
226 – Damn, we are in agreement again!!!
#223 It doesnt matter if they repeated the same talking points or not. The core principles articulated by Christie and McDonnell and their resulting policies were based on liberty and freedom.
I agree, it doesnt need to be an overt discussion each and every momment but essentially thats what the debate is really ALWAYS about.
Agree with Wylie’s post number 226 with the exception of Partial Birth Murder.
I WANT that to be a litmus test.
Sweet memories of last night, enjoy!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQPndR2WU8M
I never said I wanted gay marriage, I said I didn’t give a crap. It’s none of my damn business, essentially.
#221 I am enrolled in a 12 step brevity program lol
Its paid for with your stimulus dollars lol
(Just kidding of course!)
And another
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VpsLHairUvM
225 – while we all appreciate you insightful remarks about “carpet munchers” and “salad tossers” (interesting term salad tossing, pretty much a standard in the the gay community, but not a whole lot of straight would know what it is. I had to look it up. Sounds like you might be intimately familiar with the term and/or act) you still have not commented on CR’s position concerning divorce and other perversions committed by hetero couples.
Perhaps you can enlighten us.
#231 I agree plus that should be a state issue not a Federal one. No “one size fits” all 50 state solution ala Roe v Wade needs to be imposed….for once lets allow Federalism to work
231. Agree in principle but their tactics have hurt their cause.
They let the militants and anarchists take control of the movement during the same time that they changed their message from individual liberty to civil rights.
And they wonder why the people won’t vote in favor.
Cam Rep the UNBORN? Are you kidding me?
What next? Its allright to abolish the Death Penalty but Abortion is fine?
Gays have to stop acting like Brownshirts and quit harping in Hollywood.
I do have the biblical/moral objection to gay marriage. I understand that others have different moral views. I can accept that. I may argue and defend my view but ultimately America is a democracy/republic.
Here’s my second line of defense against Gay Marriage. It relates to my freedom/liberty to live my life I want to. If I object to Gay Marriage on a moral basis can I not live my life and operate my business based on my moral views? For instance why should I pay spousal benefits to Gays or un-married when that is against my moral beliefs. Say my name is Sam Walton instead of Rdelbov. Can’t I run my business the way I want to based on my moral views?
That’s I would vote against gay marriage laws because its not just about me accepting someone else’s moral views. They want to make me accept their views. They are not just interested in living their lives and not impacting mine. They want to change the way I run my life.
That’s why Gays call their situation the “civil rights movement of the 21st century”. They want all these legal protections that infringe on my rights.
232 – good one. Keep it up. Seriously, speaking only for myself, now that I don’t have to scroll through miles of text, you really have a lot to add to the conversation…even if you haven’t gotten to bullet points…yet.
And the best. Anderson Cooper looks like he swallowed some bitter beer. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a_d4p4YvL78
Here in IL, Chicago Liberals for years have been trying pass Gay Marriage. In a blue state with a DEM Gov and Legislature you would think it would be easy.
Nope. Conservative DEM Senators from Southern IL block it every time along with Gun Control
238 – Would you give benefits to adulterers and fornicators, in other words, those who have gone through a divorce and remarried?
Watch for New Jersey Democrats to consider legislation that will change the way the state fills vacancies in the United States Senate. Now that Democrats have lost the governorship, some party leaders are concerned that Republican Gov.-elect Christopher Christie would appoint a U.S. Senator if Democrat Frank Lautenberg, who turns 86 in January, leaves office without finishing the final four years of his term. Some Democratic leaders have already discussed a plan to take the appointment away from the governor and forcing a quick special election. Jon Corzine could sign that bill before he leaves office in January.
http://www.politickernj.com/wallye/34802/will-democrats-try-change-us-senate-vacancy-process-corzine-leaves
Anything that degrades the society that I live in, effects me personally, how could it not??
If you don’t think that codifying sexual degeneracy into law, isn’t a degradation, then there is nothing else to discuss.
Comment by D.QUIXOTE —
I’m with YOU DQ
#226
I agree with you on policy and principles. I am just talking about how policy is presented to voters.
Anderson Cooper, a Vanderbilt. Trust Fund Kid
I have a question.
You are a blue dog elected from a Republican leaning district. Nancy Pelosi says I need you to vote yes on this Obamacare and the vote has to be this week. The bill is in limbo in the senate. Are you anxious to stick your neck out and risk your political career on this disaster of a bill that you aren’t even certain will make it thru the senate?
JUST ASKING…
238 Rdel,
Yep, they changed their message. It is squarely about economics. That is why they want to be part of civil rights.
The message was hijacked. They should look in the mirror. It is their own fault that the people keep voting against them.
Again, for the record, I have no issue with gay marriage on a personal basis although I don’t get it.
If you are a secular progressive, it is against your belief in evolution and natural selection to be a believer in the gay lifestyle. Thought I would throw that little bomb out there!
#229 Shouldnt that issue be up to the states to decide?
Really the core question on abortion is when does life begin (or when it is viable)?
Clearly, since you can prosecute someone for murdering and unborn in the third trimester in most states that would reasonably argue that partial birth abortion should be outlawed as by that late in the pregrancy the baby is viable and has all the accompanying civil right of any other citizen.
But again, this is a matter best left up to the individual dictates/social consesus of the various states I think….
I will say that medical science is improving so rapidly there will come a day not too long from now when an unborn will become viable from the momment of conception – this makes the moral equation very different in the eyes of the public then it is today….
#229
You do realize that all they did is ban one late term procedure. I don’t support PBA but let’s keep into context. We are talking about late term abortions that take place because something catastrophic has happened like no developing brain. And those terminations still happen using different procedures. I don’t see the point of making this a litmus test.
BTW, I expect Nanci Pelosi to ask exactly that…
Really the core question on abortion is when does life begin (or when it is viable)?
Is a fetus with no developing brain, lungs, digestive system viable?
MD – your personal opinion, do you think that being gay is a choice or hardwired, either genetically or through environment? Do you think that it can be reversed in all cases?
Knova wants to assign “reasons” and “motives” to those that oppose gay marriage from a position of superiority over the ignorant and intolerant masses. For your information, you could oppose gay marriage for other reasons than thinking gays are flamboyant or perverted. I oppose it only because I think marriage is a tradition worth maintaining and marriage is between a man a woman. You can’t marry two women. You can’t marry your sister. You can’t marry a 12 year old. In some societies you can do all those thing. In ours you can’t. Is it antiquated? Maybe, but so what. Pledging allegiance is now considered passé. I still believe in it. If you want to support gay marriage, go ahead, but stop assigning motives to others.
No more gay debate.
Serenity now!
#247 You are bought in paid for by Pelosi and really belive in this government knows best nonsense at your core anyways so why wouldnt you?
Plus many of them are probably thinking they are on a losing path already so why not at least get the big statist program of your dreams anyways….
Would you give benefits to adulterers and fornicators, in other words, those who have gone through a divorce and remarried?
Comment by knova
Don’t take the bait RD.
249 – Again, wylie, totally spot on.
#253. I know you didn’t ask me, but I believe being gay is a choice a person makes.
257 – What are you afraid of Tim? Rd is more than capable of defending his position.
#253
Does it really matter? Are heteros allowed to marry anyone they fall in love with? No. You can’t marry your relative. You can’t marry minors. And you can’t marry more than one person at a time. This idea that “love” is the only determining factor is bunk. People marry for money, security, social status.
Sometimes is a choice. But true gay people are born that way. Something hormonal get messed up.
I’m not going to discuss gay marriage or abortion with chek or knova. no minds will be changed.
campaign spot on NY-23
“You are a blue dog elected from a Republican leaning district. Nancy Pelosi says I need you to vote yes on this Obamacare and the vote has to be this week. The bill is in limbo in the senate. Are you anxious to stick your neck out and risk your political career on this disaster of a bill that you aren’t even certain will make it thru the senate?”
It’s more complicated than that. Here is what Nancy will say: “if we don’t pass HC our base will not forgive us and HE will lose popularity and we will all go down anyway. If we pass this it will give HIM a boost and maybe a boost for all of us for having accomplished something.”
Campaign Spot on NY-23
http://campaignspot.nationalreview.com/post/?q=NjIzYTQ1NzEyZTAwYjVhZjUxNjc5ZGUyMzQ4NmIwODQ=
#252 Not at the present time but there will be a day very soon where the answer will be “yes” – its slipping back day by day as it right now
this trend will continue – unless of course Obamacare is passed then all medical innovation will come to a screeching halt
That’s why Gays call their situation the “civil rights movement of the 21st century”. They want all these legal protections that infringe on my rights.
Comment by rdelbov
Exactamundo: you done broke the code.
What are you afraid of Tim? Rd is more than capable of defending his position.
Comment by knova
I’m not afraid of anything Knova. You think you are quite smart and clever but it is quite easy for you to get upset when questions about your faith become uncomfortable to you. I have seen it several times from you.
I oppose it only because I think marriage is a tradition worth maintaining and marriage is between a man a woman.
That’s the reason I oppose same sex marriage. You are talking about changing a fundamental cultural institution. This institution defines us as a Western culture. I don’t see any compelling reason to do that.
254 – jason, I think that you misread me. I do not claim superiority over anyone. Like brandon, I just don’t see this as an issue that is deserving of taking a position on either way. The only thing that I am doing is putting arguments out there for people to refute.
#265 That the D conventional wisdom they pimp to keep them in line: the myth that all would have been fine if ONLY HillaryCare would have been passed in 93
Its essentially a politcal form of “end of life counseling” for Blue Dogs as to follow that myth will lead them to sure defeat!
Why does RCP continue to keep the ABC poll in the total it is more than 2 weeks old. A little bias maybe?
253,
My honest answer is that I don’t know.
Leave the social issues to people to decide via ballot intiatives. They should not be “Republican” issues. Just like claiming that God is a “Republican” is bad politics.
I have said over and over again that while I do view abortion in a biblical moral way. For nearly 200 years it was a state issue and should be a state issue. The late Chief Justice Rehnquist plus Scalia and Thomas hold this view as well. I might add that our constitution does not a set list of crimes to give a bucket list for the states to enact. That would be murder-incest-rape-robbery-jay walking and so forth. That’s for the states to decide under our constitution.
I will back in 20 minutes with a post on “cash for clunkers”
269 – Tim when you attack my faith, you do it personally. I have simply laid questions out for people and they are the ones that have a difficult time with the answers.
Perhaps MD can enlighten us on Palin Power.
I have simply laid questions out for people and they are the ones that have a difficult time with the answers.
Comment by knova
yeah well when i laid out some questions for YOU , you play the victim and say I am attacking your faith. All I did was pose questions which made you EXTREMELY uncomfortable.
279 -what the hell is your problem today?
#270 I think a more reasonable arguement but one both sides of gay marriage wouldnt like is this one: Why are we making marriage an institution of the state? Lets be fair to both sides and remove the government sanction from the equation here….
I agree with the concept that traditional heterosexual marriage and family structure are conerstones of society but marriage is essentially a religious rite and should be left up to the various relgions to police not the state….
For the practical side of domestic unions, have the laws apply equally to all – no exceptions…..but lets not have the state wrap it up in the trapping of marriage as thats really about basically about seeking endorcement/approval for your particular lifestyle
278 – unnecessary
I have never seen TimV attack someone’s faith. He has attacked people’s lack of faith.
“I just don’t see this as an issue that is deserving of taking a position on either way.”
For someone who doesn’t think its deserving of a position you sure have a lot of opinions of people who have taken a position. Get off you high horse and your silly theories of why people oppose gay marriage.
I think it’s pretty clear that the three top pollsters are still SUSA, PPP, and RAS.
#275 Federalizing these issues or letting courts decide is bad for all – period
281 – Wylie, does your comment look nearly exactly as mine in #37. I would like confirmation of that.
The problem with same sex marriage is the commerce clause in the Constitution. That is what nationalizes the issue.
I respect the opinion of those who are opposed as long as they keep the invectives out of the discussion. We are better than that.
<i.Get off you high horse and your silly theories of why people oppose gay marriage.
I am not sure that I have put out any theories. read #37 then read wylie’s comment 281. Feel free to attack us both.
“I have simply laid questions out for people and they are the ones that have a difficult time with the answers”
Your “questions” are just loaded and opinionated statements, they aren’t questions at all. It is a true measure of pompousness it you think your “questions” are going to get someone here to say “hey, I am prejudiced, let me embrace gay marriage”. You need a reality check, and fast.
Knova, I’m sorry for interrupting your intellectual duel with RD. As for you and I , I have no desire to debate you, so let’s just ignore each other for now.
#268 Exactly, its basically a campaign for special rights for certain groups. Although one could argue you can freely choose to become gay so essentially we all have that right too. But that essentially would undermine their position that they were a special group to begin with, eh lol
How are they loaded?
#266
I agree with Campaign Spot. The idea of citizen legislator is very romantic. The whole Mr. Smith goes to Washington thing is nice but not realistic. You need people who present themselves well. People who are informed about the issues of the day.
Stop with the “Steele must go” and comments about him being responsible for the wins in NJ & VA already. He’s just a figurehead. He did not hurt or help any contest last night. The RNC does not control the Republican Party, it just coordinates activities and acts as a cheerleader. In this capacity, Steele is as good a spokesman as any other conservative. If nothing else, he is articulate and puts a good face on the GOP. And please, no “racist” remarks. I would hope we’re all sick to death of that canard. The real control is at the state party and local level.
Okay, I’m out of here once we talking about these stupid things. See everyone later.
…….gee…good thing the GOP had a good night….imagine the tone of this discussion if they hadn’t!
I like the Phillies and we have been discriminated against for decades. I want to be part of the civil rights movement.
I have blue eyes and we all KNOW about that discrimination. I want to be part of civil rights.
Me too for a while.
#298
LOL!!!! I guess people are mad about NY 23.
Although one could argue you can freely choose to become gay so essentially we all have that right too.
Same question that I had for MD. Do you believe that being gay is a choice or somehow hardwired genetically, hormonally, or through environmental reasons? Can it be reversed?
Knova,
Your asking that question as a set up for another. Why don’t you just show your cards?
Is PA 19 the next House open seat that the Dem can pick up? Sorry, I have no faith in Pete Sessions. So far he has done a crummy job recruiting candidates.
‘How are they loaded?”
They already come with a convenient pre-cooked answer. It’s an old trick of the intellectually shallow. Ask a question and provide the answer of your liking.
#287 Exactly. And our arguement is entirely consistent with core conservative principles of individual libery and personal freedom.
Conservatives cant argue that the state (ie government force) should be used to sanction their particularly favored lifestyle over another….
Essentially that feeds right into the gay rights push as now they want state intervention/sanction for their particulary choosen lifestyle…..this is bad for all
The only interest the state should have in this is equatiable distribution of property and care of minors should said domestic unions disolve….
The proper sphere where the question of marriage should be argued in within your reglious context and within a purely private social context (ie is the “gay” lifestyle health for individual or a society)
#304 Sessions is the wrong Texan for the job. The NRSC needs to have Harslring in charge…
#302 I personnally think it is a behavioral choice or preferance. Essentially its a sexual activity you CHOOSE to engage in. Having said that, it desires no more or less governemt sanction then other sexual activity between consenting adults.
Same question that I had for MD. Do you believe that being gay is a choice or somehow hardwired genetically, hormonally, or through environmental reasons? Can it be reversed?
Comment by knova — November
I’ll take the bait. It makes no difference either way. Their behavior is unacceptable on a moral level,and needs not be legitimized. Pedophiles may be “wired” that way,so what, do we excuse their behavior, or do we send them to the slammer? Same for rapists. It doesn’t matter what drives them, it is their behavior that we hold to account.
Yeah let’s send gays to jail, that’ll do the trick.
#97 Thanks MD. Honestly, I didn’t find NJ all that difficult to prognosticate. As I said on Pollster.com, NY-23 was a highly volotile race that was difficult in the end to get a feel for, so I made my best guess based on the history of the district and got it wrong. It’s a pity but it happens.
NJ I think serves as a lesson in political fundamentals. Incumbant do NOT outperform their favorability at the ballot box. An Incumbant may get less than their favorable rating, but almost never get more, and NJ showed that the ceiling we saw for Corzine in all the polls was a real ceiling….and I have to say that Daggett collapsed even more than I expected.
As for Chek, I have never said that GOP candidates should go on the stump and call Obama the next Juan Peron. That would be stupid. *I* can say it and I believe it to be true, but I have that priveledge by virtue of posting anonymously as a private citizen. That said, I DO think that the harsh attacks calling Obama’s policies socialist are drawing real blood. I also think negative politics works even if it’s ugly.
In short, Frum is telling the GOP what some of us were talling the Dems, and in both cases it’s a losing strategy. You do NOT alienate your core support (esp when it is possibly up to 40% of the electorate) at the expense of peeling off some moderates.
-Polaris
#309
You examples don’t work since children do not consent to pedophiles and neither do rape victims. Gay sex involving consenting adults is nobody’s business. Let God take care of it.
Yeah let’s send gays to jail, that’ll do the trick.
Comment by Brandon
That’s right, read something into it that wasn’t there.
Pedophiles go to jail because they assult other people. The homos only assult themselves. Big difference.
I do think that playing on the loyalites of retired militaty and DOD civilian employees as “one of their own” is a CONSIDERABLE help in a district such as NY 23 and shouldnt be discounted.
I think it was a HUGE plus for Owens and likely put him over the top.
Plus it would be good and rational “spin” for the R to put out!
Polaris your obsession with Frum has to STOP. Why are you attacking him so much? He must be very effective since the talk show hosts are constantly attacking him?
Here is Frum’s take on NY 23:
The Blame Roll
November 4th, 2009 at 9:15 am by David Frum | 24 Comments |Share Blame the N.Y. Republican party. What were those local leaders thinking of in choosing Scozzafava as their candidate in NY-23? Were they trying to ease an unloved colleague out of Albany? The state Republican party’s impressive new chairman, Ed Cox, faces a daunting task infusing some sense and life into this broken state organization.
Blame Dede Scozzafava. Doug Hoffman’s third party challenge was the primary Scozzafava should have faced in the first place. When she withdrew because she decided she could not win, she had a duty to rally behind the candidate preferred by the greater part of her own constituents.
The N.Y. Republicans and their offputting candidate set the table for the ensuing disaster – but it was the national conservative movement that actually delivered the district to the Democrats.
Blame Hoffman. Conservatives rallied behind a leaden candidate who could not bother to study the issues that mattered most to his constituents: highways, waterways, and energy marketing; who did not live in the district and did not read the local papers.
Blame Dick Armey. How many votes were lost by that quote of his to the Watertown Times dismissing local concerns as “parochial”?
Blame talk radio and (especially) Rush Limbaugh. As often stressed here, one of the secrets to talk radio’s power is that nobody can vote against a talk radio host. Unless the host endorses a candidate. Then the host has offered a convenient target to people who resent his inflammatory talk.
Blame the Tea Party movement. Turns out that people in upstate New York worry about losing their health insurance more than they worry about a socialist-fascist takeover of the United States. Who knew?
Blame Sarah Palin. Palin helped nationalize the election in the worst possible way, transforming what ought to have been a referendum on Barack Obama’s personalities into a referendum on herself. And outside Appalachia and the white South, those referendums she will almost always lose.
303 – I will show them. I believe that the majority of gays are hardwired (bi’s are probably just trying to double their chances of a dte during the weekend). We all knew kids in elementary school who were “different” either as sissy boys ot girls that were tomboys. In third grade most do not have any idea of what a sexual orientation or identity is.
There is no doubt that there being around gays, especially males of the flamboyant variety is uncomfortable to say the least, simply because it is not “normal.” It may not be normal, but it is a function of “natural” processes. Tell the truth, given the bigotry against them, who in their right mind would choose to be gay?
My issue is what is the problem that allows us to deny rights to them that are available to the rest of us. Some people will argue it biblically (rabbinical law, Paul, etc.) while ignoring other parts of rabbinical law, or that Jesus never said anything about the issue. Again, divorce and adultery were his issues.
Others will argue about societal problems, while sweeping divorce and single parenthood under the table. Again, why not ban those.
From a strictly political POV, the younger generation is becoming more comfortable with gays. The margins that gay marriage bans are winning are becoming smaller, and also have large support from people who are otherwise liberal, i.e. AA and latinos.
I have spent a lot of time this morning putting things out there, and getting flamed by the usual suspects. I was happy to celebrate the wins that we had yesterday, none of which were remotely based on social issues. The gay marriage thing, I don’t know, perhaps I am not offended enough by them to care or perhaps I think that marriage should be a religious issue and not the realm of government.
My feelings about “gay marriage” is this:
I really don’t care. I think that government at all levels should get OUT of the marriage business entirely. Then the issue dissapears. For most of the history of this country govt was out of teh marriage business. That only changed when states in the old south wanted to criminalize interracial marriage after the civil war, and the country was not willing to accept Morman polygamy in Utah during the same period.
However, as a political matter, I think the Gay Rights community has it’s head full of rocks. They are alienating even their allies with their militant “civil rights” stands and thus forcing the issue at a time when most people aren’t willing to accept it and thus setting in stone (and into constitutional law) principles that are in direct opposition to their beliefs and lifestyles….which is stupid.
-Polaris
You examples don’t work since children do not consent to pedophiles and neither do rape victims. Gay sex involving consenting adults is nobody’s business. Let God take care of it.
Comment by Chekote —
The issue was hard wiring,as though being hard wired is an excuse. It is not,as we don’t excuse pedophiles, as there are victims.
This stuff about genetics is a red herring and has nothing to do with gay marriage. Marriage is an institution between an man and a woman, it’s not an institution between two people, two individuals, two human beings. Wanting to keep it that way is not hate, prejudice, ignorance or intolerance. Maybe it will change. But it shouldn’t change because gay activist are out there calling everybody haters, racists, and homophobes.
#310 Lets send everyone to JAIL! Thats essentially the statist answer to all problems – economic, social, etc. Pass a law favoring state intervention and make criminals out of ordinary people.
My issue is what is the problem that allows us to deny rights to them that are available to the rest of us.
Which can be addressed WITHOUT changing a fundamental cultural institution which defines us as Westerners. Do you honestly think that Muslims will not push for poligamy? Their argument is even stronger, constitutionally speaking, than the same sex marriage crowd.
I see Frum has to go out and Blame Sarah Palin. If it wasn’t for Palin, we would have had a Dem from NY-23 no matter what, or do you think that DeDe was anything other than a Dem!?
I am opposed to Frum and despise him because he is not only trying to take the GOP in what is a losing direction (and even the liberal Dems know that!) BUT he is also stabbing his political allies in the back and turning on them in order to get his five minutes of fame in the national media…and this is despicable.
-Polaris
Has the winner of the Election Prediction contest been announced?
#321 Solution: get the state out of sanctioning personal lifestyles!
Wylie and Knova-great stuff-great thoughts. Yet per my promise is my expose on cash for clunkers. I am always amused when democrats propose robin-hood type measures. You know take from rich and give to the poor. They are all about class warfare and class envy.
Yet here’s the news on cash for clunkers:
http://content.usatoday.com/communities/driveon/post/2009/11/620000959/1
Yup as I, and many others, predicted used car prices are higher. You take 670K cars out of the used car market and prices will rise. Its Adam Smith simple.
Yet let’s examine who benefited from cash for clunkers
1. Sure 125K new cars were built so the Lords of Lordtown, the UAW prices got some extra hours to pad their 130K a year salaries. Its estimated that 4/5 of sales would have occured without the clunker cash so that’s expensive subsidy to UAW prices.
2. So who bought the new cars? Were they poor folks? Nope the wealthy or near wealthy bought all these new cars. Statwise the new car buyers are much better off then the average folk.
3. Finally who is paying the real price for this program. Yup the poor and lower middle class who are the major buyers of used cars. They are paying more money for their cars.
This is robin hood in reverse. The government takes from the poor and gives to the rich or middle class. So Obama’s legacy continues to be that the poor get poorer and the rich gets richer.
#318
There are no victims when it comes to consensual gay sex.
Marriage is an institution between an man and a woman, it’s not an institution between two people, two individuals, two human beings.
Where do you stand on divorce and adultery?
#319 Wanting to not make marriage a gift of the state or keeping out of the realm of politics does not change anything that you said.
It basically shuts down the politcal drive for state sanction of gay and other nontraditional forms of marriage
Heck, even here in CA, gay marriage is banned. It was supported twice by the voters – 2000 and 2008.
“I have spent a lot of time this morning putting things out there,”
Oh puhhhlease, stop trying to serve cow pies as caviar… “put things out there” for whom exactly….us ignirint critters? If you want to “put things out” don’t serve warmed up talking points you picked up somewhere..give us something original
Well I am done for today on the issue. No minds will be changed but for the most part it has been a civil discussion.
I am sick of Flim Flam Fraud. He was going on and on that Christie was not moderate enough – we needed more moderate candidates to win. He is a disgusting creature.
He is full of himself as is that Blond B*tch – Nuissance- that wrote a speech for Reagan.
There are no victims when it comes to consensual gay sex.
Comment by Chekote
I said as much in post 313 (unless you die of aids from contaminated blood)
“Where do you stand on divorce and adultery?”
Another irrelevant red herring non-sequitur.
Palin is polarizing and doesn’t play well outsize part of the GOP base. That’s why both Christie and McDonnell said they would not have her campaign for them.
#326 I agree. However, if you take the gay-rights argument to it’s logical conclusion, then polygamous unions need to be recognized by the state as well and that’s just the beginning.
Is ANYONE (even the hard liberals) willing to accept this outside the very fringe? Heck no!
This is why IMHO the Gay Rights activists have their head full of rocks. Wait for twenty years and they probably can get what they want via the political process. Now they are enshrining law against them because of the backlash which will take far longer to fix (from their PoV).
As I said before, I think governments (at any level) should get out of the marriage business entirely.
-Polaris
310.Yeah let’s send gays to jail, that’ll do the trick.
Comment by Brandon — November 4, 2009 @ 11:22 am
First goes the ones that do not purchase Obamacare.
I said as much in post 313 (unless you die of aids from contaminated blood)
AIDS is also present in the hetero community. Give it a rest. I don’t why you get so worked up about this issue.
330 – You are an ass. you cannot get along with anyone here at all. To think that I stood behind you and your reasoning for not originally supporting Hoffman. If you can’t formulate a coherent argument, then stay out of the discussion.
#335 Actually Palin did campaign for both Christie and McDonnell.
Palin is a terrific person for unifying conservatives. You, however, hate her for some reason.
-Polaris
Awesome housing tax credit fraud:
One tenth of the program cost – is fraudulent.
Tina, if you are going to court for Democracy Corpse I am countering for Flim Flam Fraud.
In 20 years this whole marriage and raising a family kick will be over. Especially for gay men. The lifestyle of gay men does not lend itself to raising families.
Big losers: Me and Wes
“To think that I stood behind you and your reasoning for not originally supporting Hoffman.”
Knova, I don’t need your support. You are the one that wants to be God’s gift to discussion, but to do that you need a little more gravitas. Come back when you acquire some.
#326,
They can do whatever they want in private. That doesn’t mean it has to receive a legal blessing. Don’t give me the Barney Frank, “The sky won’t fall” line. That could be an argument for just about anything you want government to sanction.
AIDS is also present in the hetero community. Give it a rest. I don’t why you get so worked up about this issue.
Comment by Chekote
You’re the one that always has to have the last word,not me.
(Why do you get so worked up over the abortion issue)???
#343 I think you’re right. I think a large part of this by the Gay Activist community was a powergrab when the Dems were ascendant and nothing more.
-Polaris
#316: Denying people rights is what conservatives are all about. They are the ones who didn’t believe that blacks should marry whites, so of course they don’t believe that people of the same sex should be allowed to marry. They are contrary to the principles of democracy and equality. If you really believe in equality, you don’t have a problem with people marrying people who are the same sex.
About last night’s election results. New Jersey was a win for the Republicans, as was Virginia. However, most races for Governorships are based on local issues. They say very little about the national mood. I will go on record now and say that Christie will NOT be re-elected in four years.
In Virginia, Democrats had won the last two races for Governor, as well as the last two for the Senate, as well as Obama’s victory last year. So, looking at the long term and the big picture, Virginia is slowly turning Blue.
Now for my favorite result last night the election in NY-23.Most of you on this web side whined and moaned about how Hoffman, who does not live in the district was a candidate more representative of the “people” than Dede Scazzafava. This seat has been Republican for over 125 years, and it is now represented by a democrat. I don’t know if he will win re-election at this time, however, the state of New York has a grand total of 2 Republican members of Congress out of 29. You are the minority of the minority.
thanks for giving us Democrats another seat in Congress. We couldn’t have done it without you.
#335 Actually Palin did campaign for both Christie and McDonnell.
What personal appearances did she make? Give it a rest. She is polarizing and has done NOTHING to shed her image as unprepared. The book tour is coming up. Let’s see what she does. Another Couric “I don’t know what I read regularly” and she is DONE!
345 – coming from a 19 year old I will take it under advisement.
(Why do you get so worked up over the abortion issue)???
Because it involves limited government. It is not government’s role to impose morality.
#349
Please go back to the hole you crawled out of. Thanks.
Alan, you are a lisping parody and the main reason why reasonable gays are subject to bigotry. Go back under your rock.
Wow, Obama is -13 for THREE days in a row on Rasmussen’s Strongly Disapprove / Strongly Approve measurement.
“345 – coming from a 19 year old I will take it under advisement.”
I am moving up. Tina once called me a 2 year old. As they say, it’s not where you are, it’s the trend.
“It is not government’s role to impose morality.”
….one of my favorite canards…..”We can’t impose our values on people”.
I would contend that every single law we pass is “an imposition of values” of one sort or another.
Why is it that the only value we can’t impose on others is pro-life?
Ahh, Cuckoo Bird Alan struck 12…..
If you really believe in equality, you don’t have a problem with people marrying people who are the same sex. ~~~ALAN
What about different species? don’t you believe in “equality”???
Alan and friend
Gee, ABC and other media – claimed that these same races in 2005 were referendums on then President Bush. So, were they wrong then, or right now.
The Obumbler lost NJ and VA. Each time he showed up the D rats #s went down.
And anti-Obumbler sentimenet will only increase. He owns the economy and his Good War in Afghanistan.
#349 No your dead wrong. The statist/liberals are all about denying people their individual rights and freedom or creating special right for politically favored groups. Thats the core of “the elite know bests” and “tyranny for your own good” government intervention philosophy.
As far as NY 23, why dont you apply your theory of “local issues” there as well? It was a moderate, retired military D who won in a district where the largest employer is FT Drum NY and is heavy in military retirees. Dont underestimate the political appeal of “voting for one of our own” that was part of the Owens campaign.
The Owens victory was no great endorcement for the radical left government interventionist philosophy….
353-354. looks like we agree.
I would contend that every single law we pass is “an imposition of values” of one sort or another.
Really? Traffic laws are about morality. The job of government is to protect our rights as individuals and maintain order. Nothing to do with the Bible, Koran or any other religious/moral book.
#349 Really Alan. Conservatives are all about taking away people’s rights?
Which party is it that wants to take away to buy OR NOT BUY the type of health insurance I want?
Would that be anything that looks anything like your party?
-Polaris
I don’t understand that the lesson some folks are drawing from last nights election is “tell the so-cons to shut up”?
I figured that we’d all be enjoying a pretty big win today and immediately it turns into a civil war.
Relax folks….we need the so-cons and we need the free market folks and we need the strong defense folks and WE DON’T NEED TO GO OUT OF OUR WAY TO SPLINTER THE PARTY ONE DAY AFTER BIG VICTORIES!
Social issues played no role in the elections last night. But you can’t keep talking about limited government and at the same time advocate sodomy laws (like DQ/IP does) or criminalizing abortion or saying that government’s role is to impose morality.
Because it involves limited government. It is not government’s role to impose morality.
Comment by Chekote
The biggest canard of all.Our Judeo/Christian culture is steeped in morality one way or the other.
Stealing involves morality. It is illegal, made so by gubmint.
Rape certainly has a moral aspect to it. It is illegal.
It is immoral to murder. It is also illegal.
Abyway, Pete Sessions needs to do a better job recruiting candidates for 2010 or no progress will be made.
I’ll repeat: EVERY SINGLE LAW WE PASS IS AN IMPOSTION OF VALUES OF ONE SORT OR ANOTHER
Traffic laws: yeah, you can’t speed because we value the idea that innocent’s life might be harmed by a speeding or drunk driver.
Taxes: yeah, because we value some services we get from the Government.
Zoning laws: yeah, we value the idea that the community has some say in what sort of buildings we want in our town/city.
Just because it isn’t in the Bible or the Koran doesn’t mean it isn’t a value.
#350 Chek,
You claimed that Palin did not campaign for McDonnell and Christie because she was polarizing. That is verifiably false. You also claimed that Christie and McDonnell won because they ran as moderates. No they did not. They never hid the fact they were conservatives nor did they shy away from conservative allies.
What they did was to “finish the sentence” and take the conservative appeal and THEN tell the moderates why it was good for them. Given the anti-Dem backlash, this was (more) than enough.
Honestly in this the Dems recently have been their own worst enemies. By painting the GOP as a bunch of camo-wearing, uneducated, intollerant, redneck hicks, they make it very easy for a GOP candidate to look very appealing.
-Polaris
#368
That’s correlation not causation. Just because higher ice cream consumption coincides with higher robbery rate does not mean that eating ice cream tunrs people into thieves. Murder is illegal because it violates rights and a society that allows stealing, murder will be chaotic and will perish.
#357 I would say in a strict sense laws should impose morality – they should reinforce the defense of your individual rights and liberties.
The government is simply an agent set up by the people for further protection of these rights.
Read the Declaration of Independence – life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Read the Bill of rights.
The individual soverign citzen agrees to cede the right to use force to the state to protect his god-given rights no more no less then that.
The only “equality” we should be talkng about in the context of the law is equal protection of our basic rights (interally by the local and state governments and externally by the Federal government).
In this context, the pro-life arguement has great validity in that a viabale unborn child can be considered a citizen due all the full protection of the state. The question reasonable people can disagree on is when that viablity occurs and thus state protection kicks in. Clearly, with modern science thats occurs well before full term.
In Cal 10 we lost 53-43. Very good showing for a suburban San Fran district Obama carried by over 30.
I wish we’d had that candidate in NY 23.
Brandon
Did Palin campaign for Christie?
#372 Chek I tend to agree with you on this issue, but the other side does have a point. Morality has driven what the legal codes have said ever since Hammurabi.
-Polaris
It’s funny how all the liberals who talked themselves blue in the face on how NY 23 was a remote meaningless Republican district are now using it as their only crutch and beacon of hope, salvation from absolute disaster. Kos ranked it “the most important election result”. Alan thinks it’s just splendid to have a blue dog for a year.
Meself, I will take VA and NJ and the PA Supreme Court (final word on redistricting).
Murder is illegal because it violates rights and a society that allows stealing, murder will be chaotic and will perish.
Comment by Chekote — November 4, 2009 @ 11:54 am
This is true, but the basis of that is morality.
370 – I am going to agree with you and DQ, that for the most part our laws are about some type of morality and have their basis in judeo-christian traditions. That said, simply because it is in the Bible or Karan, doesn’t make it good law. If it did, we would all be still following Leviticus.
#375. Not that I know of. But allegedly, she recorded a robocall that did not mention Christie by name, but urged people to “vote their values”.
Anxious for Palin to announce her book tour schedule and find out when she’s coming to Houston. I’ll be there for sure at her book signing.
No society could survve without some code of conduct~~IE: morality.
knova,
I’m not saying we follow Leviticus. Society has the right to argue and impose whatever values it sees fit.
I’m only saying that the argument that So-Cons should be quiet is nonsense.
You also claimed that Christie and McDonnell won because they ran as moderates.
Actually, I said that they adopted a moderate tone and offered solution to problems people care about. They did not run around mimicking Beck, Rush or CFG talking about liberty vs. tyranny. Obama is a marxist and all the other nonsense that turns off middle of the road voters. Also, Palin is polarizing. She turns off as much as she attracts. Look at the fav/unfav numbers. You can’t win an election with those numbers.
#370 I repeat, your wrong if the concept of individual rights and a soverign citizen are correctly understood.
The degree to which “morals” are imposed is to stray from these basic principles and purposes of the law. You are then not talking about limited government where the people retain soverignty. You dont have the rule of law, you have the rule of men and this is the problem we have today.
We cant make special expections for government intervention, reduction of individual rights, or creation of special rights as that is the statist/socialist political idea in a nutshell.
And in practical terms, government intervention produces worse outcomes and more disatification for people in the areas of social issues, economics, you name it….
Once you allow that the club of governement force can be used to protect anything other then our fundamental rights logically almost anything else goes….
This is true, but the basis of that is morality.
Most societies don’t santion murder, stealing, lying. Nothing to do with the Bible. Those are basic things you need to follow in order to keep order and preserve the society.
Alan is a depressed Gay Teenager who predicted a huge Corzine victory.
Sorry about Maine sunshine.
Man, win two elections and the SoCons are BACK… Couldn’t even wait a full day. Don’t you remember where this got us before? SoCons thought they ruled the roost = isolated indies = Obama. Learn from history people, besides, gay guys aren’t into straights, so unless you are in the closet what do you have to worry about?
And, on a biology note:
A study was performed on both sexes, of all three claimed sexual orientations (straight, bisexual, and gay). During the study, each subject was shown erotic pictures of men and women. Obviously the straights were aroused by the opposite sex while gays by the same. The oddity was the bisexuals of whom the females were aroused by both, however the bi males were not by females. This leads me to believe it is hard wired in.
In other words why should you enforce your “moral” beliefs on someone. Gays aren’t trying to convert you and think of how you would feel if it was the other way round. You don’t have to respect them, but at least tolerate them.
Chek,
You mean poll numbers such as 64% of the country’s adults view Palin as a good role model for women, 55% believe she’s honest and trustworthy, and 56% beleives she cares about people like them?
#382 But society ie private individuals should enforce social norms not the state. That has been the traditionally effective application not codifying things into law….
382 – agreed. At one time morality dictated that interacial marriages were bad. That has changed, or has it not. Can morality adapt or change (I am NOT talking about the Constitution here, so let’s not make the “living document” leap)
#389. No, I think she was referring to the 7 out of 10 don’t think she is qualified to be President.
#384 Funny, but I didn’t see Palin’s name on the ballot. Chek give it up. What this election showed was the same thing that 2005 showed the Dems when they were at their nadir.
Moving to the political middle after getting spanked nationally and going into the minority is a LOSING strategy. When you by necessity must be the party of “No” (the role of all opposition parties), then you have to put a premium on party unity, loyalty, and appeal to your based….and for that Palin is brilliant.
-Polaris
Learn from history people, besides, gay guys aren’t into straights, so unless you are in the closet what do you have to worry about?
Actually, a gay man friend of mine told me that it is a gay fantasy to have sex with a “real” man. But then again a hetero man would never has sex with another man. It is a catch 22 situation, I guess.
If Owens was smart, he would switch parties now. If he became of Republican he could stay in Congress 20 years, instead of warming a seat for a year.
Wow, this site is out of control today.
No matter, we’re all passengers on the U.S. Titanic.
but I didn’t see Palin’s name on the ballot.
It basically was in NY 23. She was the king maker. Palin power. Look, if she shows up on Oprah and babbles on again like she did with Couric, even Conservative for Palin will start dropping her.
#392 My numbers are better than yours dammit, hahahahah.
#388 I think natural biological urges would relegate “gay” sexual practice to a tiny minority anyways so why are we wrapped around woring about a gay takeover.
To the degree they want special rights confered to them as a politically favored “victim” or minority group they should be opposed.
But at the same time we need to be consistent in our principles and say that we dont need state sanction for our perfered social institutions either…..the idea that the state can confer approval and favors to one group or lifestyle over the others is the problem here.
#395
Why would he do that? So far neither Pete Sessions or Steele have demonstrated the ability to recruit good candidates.
Sorry neither “nor”
#391 That why the government should not be in the marriage business I think. As far as personnal partnerships/living arrangement goes the state interest is equatable settlement of disputes that may arrise of disolution of such arrangements to protect the individual rights (property being a big one) of the parties involved.
#393…
No doubt Polaris…
She still can’t square the fact that Palin helped in VA, which I THINK turned out well…
But she chooses to focus on 23 as somehow being a referendum on Palin…
Strange…
You can always tell how rational and/or mature someone is by how they handle arguments/facts ESPECIALLY when they’re proven wrong…
Her arguments make no sense whatsoever…
Let’s be clear and let’s learn from what happened after 2004. After that election the So-Con part of the GOP went too far and did alienate the middle and gave the GOP a bad name from which they still haven’t recovered. In this Frum, Chek, and others are totally correct. This was a perfectly avoidable error had the So-Con part of the GOP listened to me (and others) the very NIGHT of the 2004 victory where I warned (if you will recall) that the GOP should not forget and should not marginalized it’s Libertarian wing.
The Schiavo and Immigration debacles could have been avoided had the GOP listened to it’s libertarian side and had govt stay out.
THAT SAID, the GOP can not and should not treat the So-Cons as lepers and should not run away from them. However I hope the So-Cons have learned they do not have enough votes for a ruling coalition by themsevles.
Today is a great day and I forsee that 2010 will be even better. However, lets learn from our past mistakes and from the mistakes the Dems are making right now and let’s not read into this what’s not there.
These elections were a repudiation of the policies of Obama (and I think his advisors know that perfectly well) and showed that the partisan nature of this country is snapping back to normal. Re-alignment is off the table for the forseeable future. However, let’s not pretend that the public has forgotten Shiavo or the Immigration debacles of 2005. They have not.
-Polaris
2012SE
I respect your opinions but I respectfully disagree with you.
Gays do not just want to get married and then live their private lives. They my business or the corporation I own or control to recognize them as married and give them benefits. That’s why some conservatives have okayed “civil unions” as this new fangled device does not fall within all the state and federal civil and laws that affect businesses.
So if Amway or ServiceMaster-corps. run by Christians in a Christian moral value way-do not have to recognize gay marriages.
I might add that if local school district feels the same way as my business does that marriage is between one man-one woman that’s a local issue. If San Francisco wants to recognize gay marriage that’s their business. Let them spend their own tax dollars their way. In Memphis if we say “no” to that let us live our lives our way.
I am all for Gays having the rights to visit loved ones in hospitals and stuff like that. Just do not force me to change the way I live my life and run my business
Chek,
I like your strategy of telling all social conservative to take a flying leap. In fact, I think all non-SoCon conservatives should peel away from the GOP. I think Alan and Tim the Dim would endorse that strategy since it will guarantee a century of Democratic domination.
Folks,
Hello everyone, its was a great night last night.
But she chooses to focus on 23 as somehow being a referendum on Palin…
Palin’s intervention in NY 23 made several headlines. Her supposed robocalls in VA and NJ never did. Sorry but those are the facts. You choosing to give her credit is baseless.
Chek,
GIVE IT UP. Palin was not on the ballot anywhere…not even in NY-23.
-Polaris
399 “To the degree they want special rights confered to them as a politically favored “victim” or minority group they should be opposed.”
Totally agreed, as i have said about all minorities they do not deserve special compensation, because in the end it is just reverse racism, which is plainly racism.
If you want to be treated as an equal, act like an equal.
I personally respect all walks of life that do not harm others. And frankly what two gays do does not bother me. Its not like they are rabbits out in public places getting it on.
And as for morality, there is no set in stone “morality.” It varies from culture to culture and time period to time period.
#386 government protection from “murder, stealing, lying (I assume you mean fraud)” are simply defending the inalienable rights given to all man by the creator (that life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness thing again!).
Again, we a sovegin individual citizens simply deputize government as our agent that may use force to protect these rights.
Basic individual rights and freedoms have nothing to do with “social norms” (although most society’s norm do tend to respect them) and everything to do with inalienable rights!
Palin’s intervention in NY-23 caused Hoffman to go from single digits to 46% of the vote in a matter of days.
A large part of the reason Hoffman lost was that the early voting failed to catch the surge and thus denied Hoffman otherwise republican votes.
-Polaris
Chek…
As usual, you are full of crap…
I heard one of the Robo calls last night being played during the news updates as they were specifically speaking about VA…
Google Palin and Robocalls and numerous articles come up…
Another example of your flawed logic and uneducated position on a topic…
Polaris is right…
You act as if she was on the ballot…Put your contempt aside if you’re mature enough to do so…
Does anyone have a final count on the Republican pick ups in the Virginia House of Delegates?
Just do not force me to change the way I live my life and run my business
Serious question RD. How would gays make you change the way you run your business?
405
I do respect your opinion, however how much would it affect you to pay them benefits as opposed to a married couple? My point is the only way it would effect you would be fiscally, and then the only way to truly save money would be a gay workforce without paying benefits to their partners. I understand your moral objections, but sometimes there is a cost for understanding. It is not necessarily condoning a behavior that you disagree with, however it is realizing some people are different and accepting that fact.
btw I hope you receive this as respectfully as i received as your rebuttal
#404 Its strange but I dont understand why SOCON’s dont embrace the libertarian ideal.
The root of the social issues is the acceptance of government intervention into these issues. Its a sword that can cut both ways and can be preverted against you by the political and legal process once you accept the premise that the government has a legitimate case to do anything except protect our fundamental rights and settle disputes.
You have already ceded the basic philosophical arguement to the left and are defending your arguement from a bad positon.
In other news, SUSA was the most accurate pollster in each of the four races.
The robo polls all did very well.
on the gay marriage issue, i think most of us would agree to allow each state to decide.
“Serious question RD. How would gays make you change the way you run your business?”
Ah, it’s a serious question this time…that does shed some light on the previous ones…
DOH!! My prediction of Christie winning 48-44-6 was one point off. Daggett only pulled 5%. That SLACKER!!! I think I’ll go back to crying some NY-23 tears (sniff)
417 You are spot on today. But what it comes down to is control. And as bad as I am going to be flamed for this, the far left and the far right are very similar, just differ on issues. The far left want everyone to be “equal.” The far right wants everyone to act in the same way they do. Frankly, as a libertarian, I could care less how people act, when it has little to no effect on me.
a quick check of Wiki on Va House of Delegates shows 59 39 2 for the coming session. Looks like a net +5 and just short of 60% total. Not sure if the Indys caucus with either party. Clearly dont need them for most votes.
#419 Agreed and I think this answers which kind of polling (IVR vs Live Interviewing) gets the best results especially in a state known for its often open corruption (NJ).
-Polaris
Wylie,
I’m not an across-the-board SoCon…..I just can’t get past (nor would I ever want to get past)the first “inalienable right”
The right-to-life.
Too many libertarians give us short-shrift and the tone of many of our responses tends to be a reaction of being told to “be quiet” (and I’m not implying that is what you do – you are quite articulate and reasoned) Believe me, I am a huge proponent of limited government; limited taxation and economic freedom.
But even in my cherished goal of very limited government I believe that the basic protection of the unborn and their “right to be born” should be a basic tenet of conservative republicanism.
#422, I had:
VA:
McDonnell 59%
Deeds 41%
NJ:
Christie 48%
Corzine 43%
Daggett 7%
Hoping that gets me the Win in the prediction contest!
#368 No. Murder is wrong because it infringes on your inalienable right to life. Stealing is wrong because it infringes on your right to pursue happiness as it deprives you from the results of your efforts. Etc.
Laws and law enforcement simply exsist to prevent others from infringing on our god-given rights. To the degree we depart from that is what gets us in trouble. We cede the right to use force to protect these rights to the government. Once we go beyond protection of individual rights, we are asking the government to use force to make other accept our point of view or behave in a manner we see fit and logically there can be no limit to the potential government intervention or use of force (especially when it is cloaked in terms of being “for our own good”). We then have the rule of men, not the rule of law.
Didnt we fight ole King George the IIIrd based on this principle? Where has it been proven to be wrong???
The root of the social issues is the acceptance of government intervention into these issues.
BINGO!!!!!
The truth is that many SoCons would be more than happy to have big government if it was imposing values they agree with. Just ask DQ.
So, does Pelosi force a House vote on Obamacare this week or not?
I heard Monday it would be tomorrow. I haven’t heard anything else since then. Has it been postponed again?
The plants are out!!!!!!!!
#413
So now you are claiming that robocalls in VA and NJ were center stage. I want to know just how many calls were made and what the impact was. I don’t believe for one second that those calls made any difference. They don’t make any difference. They people they target will vote no matter what.
I hope SurveyUSA shows one of its ‘12 maps soon. I recall they did one for Obama v. McCAin in 2005 (turned out to be prescient)
The reality is that if Hoffman won all the Palinistas would be here claiming a big victory for Palin. If you are going to claim a victory for her, then you have to be ready to claim defeat for her. Wusses.
Tinareports was accurate in each election….
Where is there a “right to be born” exactly? I get bothered by all these rights, like I was bothered by those advancing the “right to gay marriage”.
Chek,
You do know that over 50% of McDonnell’s votes came from white evangelical Christians.
You do know that McDonnell did not win any Democrats and got beat worse among blacks and hispanics than george w. bush.
The McDonnell is a slap to those who say we need more of the minority vote (I guess I was in that camp earlier this year but have changed my thinking).
431 WHERE?!
The GOP needs to get rid of Pete Sessions. He can’t recruit good candidates. Look at Tedisco and Scozza.
As a side issue the senate healthcare process is free fall. Harry Reid is tying the CBO up with a bizarre array of possible public option/trigger plans/tax & fine options. Its literally a Chinese menu plan where Harry wants to choose one item from column A and so forth. How did we get to the point where one person literally is writting the most far reaching legislative program since Medicare.
Lieberman-Landrieu-Nelson at the moment seem almost certain votes to prevent passage of a public option healthcare bill in the senate. So the message is clear to the house members. Why walk the plank on the oublic option in the house?
On NY -23 Hoffman’s name appeared only once while Owens and Mazzola appeared twice.
#426 I dont disagree with you as the right to life is an inalienable right. However, my point is that reasonable people in this society seem to disagree on exactly when that occurs (and thus state protection of the unborn’s rights kicks in).
You say at the momment of conception
Others say “at birth”
Others say “when the baby is viable and can survive outside the womb”
There are other side issues. For example, does forcing a mother to give birth if medically it may threaten her life (ie violates here inalienable rights).
Point is, these are valid politcal questions that reasonable people can disagree on.
Since they are contentious, I say a one size fits all Federal solution is not the answer here. States need to decided and therefore individual citizens who disent can move to a locality that supports their point of view.
I would add that scientifically speaking we are rapidly approaching the day when the unborn will be viable outside the womb from the momment of conception. Then, politically and morally speaking, it will be very very hard to justify abortion on demand.
TB
McDonnell won suburban votes. That’s the key for the GOP. The Walmart, tea party, rabid pro-life crowd ain’t enough.
427. Michael T where was your Hoffman prediction?
#429 I have to agree with Chek on this. I realize that a number of so-cons believe what they do and espouse what they do from the best possible personal motives, but they still favor the use of governement force to impose their beliefs on those that disagree
That is something that as a party, the GOP can not afford right now.
Make it a plank that each state should be given the unquestioned right to make those decisions for themselves…and then let the morality debates play out on the state level. THIS is a winning message for the GOP (both for so-cons and libetarians).
If you believe it is right to use govt force to impose your belief on another, then you forfeit the right to complain when your opponent uses govt force on you.
-Polaris
GM
The two indies in VA are pretty much down the line conservatives. D’s usually run against but the GOP do not file in their districts.
great news from VA.
Abortion is a very complicated issue. The “right to be born” is arguable, but at what point do you receive that right? See the problem with the definition. At what point is something considered a living entity with rights? I myself am pro choice (to a point, partial birth is a despicable act) but if i came across the circumstance in my personal life, i would treat it in a pro-life manner. It comes down to the choice being there. Call me a RINO but i agree with Bill Clinton that abortions should be legal, safe and rare.
The truth is that many SoCons would be more than happy to have big government if it was imposing values they agree with. Just ask DQ.
Comment by Chekote —
As usual chekotex gets it bass akwards.It is my opposition to THEM using big gubmint to cram their perversion down my throat. It is they who want to use the state to force me to accept their “lifestyle” not the other way around.
The marriage issue is a red herring. What they are really after is societal recgonition and acceptance of their degeneracy as normal behavior, so as to ease their own guilty consciences.The marriage thing is just a trojan horse for their “agenda”
445 Well put
#434 Without Palin, we would have had a turncoat Dem or an outright Dem in NY-23. Without Palin, DeDe would have stayed in the race. Given what we now know about DeDe, don’t you think you (and we) owe Palin a big “thank you” and you owe her an apology?
-Polaris
New thread above.
DQ “What they are really after is societal recgonition and acceptance of their degeneracy as normal behavior, so as to ease their own guilty consciences.”
Who are you to set the bar for normal behavior?
447. Don’t call yourself a RINO, they are regularly culled, castrated and put out to pasture here.
Geesh, I think the overriding lesson from the recent elections are simple: basic conservative principles are political winners ie individual liberty, personal freedom, free market economics, federalism, and limited government.
These ideas produce the best outcomes and the most satisifaction for the greatest number of people everytime they are applied in practical policy and governance. This goes for econominic, social issues, etc – this IS the politically winning idea provided we have canidate who can actually understand them then articulate that message.
People “get this” a gut level.
Unless you are a hard core utopian socialist who wants equality of outcome come hell or high water, this message reasonates with the vast majority of americans today.
Palin generates excitement amond a select group. The problem is that said group is not enough to win elections. And please stop looking at crowd size. It tells you nothing.
447. Having said that, I agree with your position on abortion, if not on gay marriage.
#448 Well be consistent in your insistent that the state not provide legal sanction or benefit for anyone personal lifestyle or behavior.
Its the acceptance of the principle that the government can have an interventionist role has led all these various so-called victim groups to agitate for special rights.
Serious question RD. How would gays make you change the way you run your business?
t
Comment by knova
The civil rights laws being extended to cover “sexual orientation” would force him to quota hire gays, thus viloating his property rights. As a libertarian I would think you would want to protect property rights.
Chek…
Again, you are full of it…
I never said calls were placed in NJ…
NEVER…
Read what people write before you reply…
I also NEVER said they were “center stage”…
Take a second and read what I wrote…
YOU claimed that she was polarizing and led to problems in 23…
I called BS on that statement and brought up her robocalls in VA as an example of ZERO fallout in that state…
Your issue, among many, is that you hate her and disregard anything she does…
456 And it is your American right to agree or disagree. Imagine how boring theocracies and communist nations must be. No arguments and no conflict, well what little their is either gets stoned or shot, depending on which kind of government you live under.
Ever read a good book in which all the character sat around at a table and complimented each other on how right they were?
#445 You absolutely spot on. Its a dangerous two edge sword to give to government. And in practical political terms its bad politics as you cede off the bat the interventionist arguement right off the bad.
A vast majority of people still get that governement intervention is inherently bad for their lives in all areas.
Who are you to set the bar for normal behavior?
Comment by 2012NSE
If you think what they do to each other isn’t abnormal, than you are one of them. (that bar was set long ago, read the bible sometime)
Palin is polarizing. That’s a fact. You can accept it or deny it at your own peril. Most of all, Palin turns off a lot of Republican leaning women. That’s a fact.
#460 Yeah, and that “harmony” is enforced only thru the most brutal oppression of individual rights and freedoms imaginable
Chek…
You have no idea what you’re talking about…
It was due to Palin, and OTHERS, that the ultr-liberal/Benedict Arnold was forced out…
The only real conservative remained…
SHE, and OTHERS, brought more focus on that campaign from a rather small, local special election to a fight for the right candidate to be on the ballot…
Sorry, she served her purpose well and that does not sit well with you…
Tough luck..
quota hire gays
I doubt that he is quota hiring blacks or any other “protected” class at this point.
458, see that’s where the problems begin. First of all i disagree with quota laws and reverse racism, but to extinguish that there cannot be discrimination in the first place. Bigots are the reason the laws are made, thought some minorities decide to take advantage of that to try to get a step up.
Again, Act Equal and get Treated Equal. That is is my firm belief.
Oh God, Rush is trying to say that social issues won the day yesterday. Rush is just trying to make his audience happy. Sorry, social issues played no role. It was about jobs, jobs, jobs.
Chek…
No comments on what I wrote regarding your inability to be truthful in what you’re arguing against?…
SHOCKER…
Chek fails, once again, to address questions or comments directed at her…
DQ, I have read the Bible. 10 Commandments and The Gospels (Jesus’ words). Can you tell me where there is an issue with gays in those documents?
Sorry, she served her purpose well and that does not sit well with you…
So getting Dems elected to Congress is her purpose? Sorry but I don’t view NY 23 as a victory for conservatism. Splitting the party so that the Dems can win is that a great future. If Palin wants to help the GOP, she needs to improve her image with the larger public. She will have her chance starting next week. Let’s see what she does. As of now, she repels as much as she attracts.
#462 So its not normal behavior – its doent mean we need government to sanction or suppress it.
Gays can read the bible too. If they freely choose to ignore its dictates they do so at their own risk.
The greatest gift God gave mankind is freewill. Without the ability to freely choose ones behavior there is in effect no good or evil.
That is why the creator designed the univerise such as it is. The “gays” and others can disregard His written word or natural laws as they choose. Its not for us to hold them accountable for their own behavior except when they choose to violate our freewill (ie inalienable rights).
I have said over and over that the GOP needs to win back suburban votes. +200K votes. White women votes. That’s the future. VA and NJ proved me right.
462 Hmm, why should the bible be the standard? The ancient Greeks had traditions where older men slept with young boys. It was looked upon favorably back then, in fact many of Socrates pupils were upset that he would merely occupy the same bed as the. And much of our society today is set upon the Ancient Greek traditions. That bar was set before the bible my friend.
And if you are wondering, no I am not gay. I just don’t give a crap what they do. Why should I be set to your moral standards by your bible?
Here’s the skinny on a possible house schedule.
1. Late on Tuesday the leadership posted the bill online with manager’s amendments. So based on an earlier fib its possible that a vote could occur on Friday on everything. So after 8 hours of debate Pelosicare could be voted on.
2. But wait Batman what about abortion? The rules committee will have to put forth a rule ( a plan of action) on how the house will progress through this house legislation. There is a budding abortion compromise to smooth the feathers and to get this turkey plucked. So while this abortion amendment affects the actual bill and its implemnation no one will get three days to look at. Its just a little white fib but whats a lie or two among friends.
3. The 1st vote on Friday-if it occurs will be on the rule to pass the bill. There apparently will be no amendments allowed and very limited debate. The vote on the Rule will be a sign of whether the bill will pass or not.
4. Right now its all or nothing for Pelosi. Do you love her more then you love your seat?
Chek…
You aren’t very smart, are you?…
READ what I wrote…
If you can’t see how getting DeDe OUT of the race was a good thing, then I can’t continue to argue with someone who lacks basic common sense…
Palin WAS NOT ON THE TICKET…
Hoffman was, last time I checked…
You want to find fault with her for his loss, that just shows your level of maturity and understanding of politics…
Do you even understand what her endorsement did?…
Do you even understand how Palin, and others, helped Hoffman to surge to a place where she had to get out?…
Does it even resonate with you how she turned her back on the GOP?…
Unfortunately, I think even these basic questions are beyond your comprehension…
btw DQ, I will put it so far as to say I have gay friends. And i am comfortable enough in my sexual orientation that I can spend time with them and appreciate them as human beings… Are you that comfortable?
Going back to the PPP poll from Saturday:
US HOUSE – NEW YORK – CD23 (PPP)
Doug Hoffman (C) 51%
Bill Owens (D) 34%
Dede Scozzafava (R) 13%
We all know of PPP’s ties to the Democratic Party. What do you think are the odds this was not a bogus poll purposely planted by the DNC. By showing Hoffman so high, it gave his people a sense of false confidence and led the GOP to cut back on any aid planned for the last few days because it felt the race was in the bag.
I can see the DNC involving ACORN, SEIU and PPP in its strategic planning. Just as I believe the DNC was behind the frivilous ethics complaints against Palin, I suspect they commissioned a bogus poll. How else could they be over 20 points off a few days before the election? What are your thoughts?
DQ, I have read the Bible. 10 Commandments and The Gospels (Jesus’ words). Can you tell me where there is an issue with gays in those documents?
Comment by knova
try this
462 So its not normal behavior – its doent mean we need government to sanction or suppress it. wylie
I offered no such ” suppression” only that they not use gubmint mandate to force their “lifestyle” on the rest of us by pushing their “gay” agenda. It is they who are trying to force us to accept their degeneracy via various red herring issues. The phony hate crimes law is a good example.
479 Uh Oh, here comes the Old Testament. Well if its back to that I better start rounding up some stones to kill adulterers with, stop eating pork, not leave my house on Sunday. Because after all, all sins are the same in they eyes of God. So being gay is the equivalent of cooking dinner Sunday night. Unless its pork dinner, that is doubly bad!
479 – I didn’t say it wasn’t in there. There are LOTS of laws in Leviticus that we do not follow, one being that we can kill our children for being disrespectful to us. Again, my point is that the basis of our Christian faith is what Christ said and did. He is tough on adultery and divorce, and says nothing of the other. The 10 Commandments are also tough on divorce but silent on anything else. Our society is quick to forgive divorce and turn a blind eye to adultery
Let me end it this way and have us part as fellow conservatives, at least on the important matters. My original thoughts were “why make this an issue?” It is not life and death as arguably abortion is. I think it is one of being uncomfortable with the “un-normal” part of it.
We have had our disagreements, I never wanted this to get this far out of control.
The phony hate crimes law is a good example.
I will agree with you there. ALL violent crime is a hate crime.
479 Uh Oh, here comes the Old Testament.~~~by 2012NSE
Flippancy duly noted.
Try romans(new testament) chapter 1 verses 24 thru 27.
#483 Hate crime laws = thought crimes laws. Your correct, all violent crimes against our individual rights usually dont involve love or good intentions. But again, thought or motive doesnt matter – behavior does. And now for the first time in the history of this nation we are not only punishing behavior but thought too – thats very very dangerous.
We have alot of “firsts” like this lately. Take HC, for the first time ever your Federal government is FORCING you to buy a product/service from a private party as a condition of citizenship!
Scary, eh?
#480 My point is that government intervention is the root cause of your complaint. Government can either intervene to sanction with special rights (as what the gays are demanding here) or to suppress (as some would like to do for example with so-called “hate” or thought crimes)
Neither is good and the logicial result is gays or other groups would seek government intervention for their particular benefit
484 I want words of Christ, not Paul. Previously known as Saul, who held the coats of the people stoning St. Stephen (Acts 8:1)
So give me the words of the only pure man to live, not the interpretation from an ex persecutor.
Well, this thread went to Hell.
489 – You inject religion it is bound to happen. As I told DQ, I never wanted it to get out of control, but most emotional issues do. BTW, I showed you my cards. Was that a satisfactory explaination.
Sure. You and I agree on the general principle. I despise their tactics.
I am moving on.
Matthew 5:17-20
“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.”
Ok, got better things to do. Cya later.
DrJay. Does that mean that we should kill children who are disrespectful, or throw our wives out of the tent during their periods? I have seen that one too, so we all better start living by ALL of Leviticus, not just the parts that we pick and choose. 2012 had a point about those laws.
491 Well i guess we are all ephed since i know everyone breaks an OT law. I have other things to attend too. Cya later.
No, our failure to live up to God’s standards is covered by the blood of Christ. That is the miracle of the gospels, and it is the culmination and completion of an incredible story that you have failed to grasp. That’s all I have to say about that.
495 – I have always agreed with that part.
that you have failed to grasp.
I am not the one here vilifying God’s creation, as different as they might be from you and me. Perhaps you work some of that salvation stuff on those who live and die by PARTS of the OT and Paul’s words.
So give me the words of the only pure man to live, not the interpretation from an ex persecutor. btw, not trying to hijack, just don’t want DQ to dodge. More than happy to continue below.
Comment by 2012NSE —
There is nothing to dodge, and other than this response, you’ll be continuing it all by yourself.
The scripture is what it is.
I hesitate to even enter this mine field, but most scholars consider the bible as the word of God, written by mortals as HE directed them to do. Is the bible an interpretation, or the inspired word of God,using the apostles as instruments of his will?
One cannot pick and choose the passages you like based upon the author thereof. That is a slippery slope I decline to slide down.
Beating this dead horse serves no purpose. You go your way, I’ll go mine.
498 Amen
Let’s move on!
500
Um OK
http://www.moveon.org
500
Bad choice of words on my part!
I thought that you might appreciate that.
Yea, I gave them $50 bucks while visiting that site.
I also run the 40 in 4.2.
Phils tonight. EPH – we need your prayers!!!!
503 – speaking of running, i have a marathon in a few weeks.
I am so proud
On January 11 of this year I weighed 217 pounds
I am down to 180
my first 10k in may was 1:04
My first 5k in june was 25:55
I did a triathlon in August (750 M swim, 17 mile bike, 5K run)
5k in 22:36 in September
1/2 marathon in 1:47 in September
I am hoping for 3:45 or so for the Marathon
Not bad for a guy who last ran seriously in 1978.
Nice job Knova. I am still waiting for my hip to heal.
We will do the Philly 1/2 next year.
498 EXACTLY, now stop telling me to follow YOUR Bible as the moral compass for society.
heres a gameplan for next year.
The litmus test falls to FISCAL conservativism.
Smaller government, lower taxes, no cap n trade, no Pelosicare.
There is a difference between Rinos and liberal Republicans- Guiliani is certainly no Rino, but hes liberal on a lot of social issues.
Run him in states in the Northeast and midwest. Run the socon-ficons in the south. Run some libertarian-Republicans in districts in California and New England.
But dont deviate from the Fiscal policy idea- the core concept of which is that the individual American has better sense what to do with his or her money than a government official.
We did this effectively in 1994- winning statehouses, governors mansions, Senate and House seats from coast to coast.
FiCons like Christie will naturally win their primaries in states like New Jersey. So/FiCons will win primaries in states like Virginia, like McDonnell.
Social conservatives will still vote for the Republican candidate out of anger and fear of Obamamania. Dont take them for granted, but dont expect them to run away if you have a ProChoice but Anti-Obamanomics Republican against a Democrat.
Get the libertarians back into the party, damnit! Has anyone else noticed that in some tight races last year, libertarian-minded voters pulled for third parties- thereby assuring Democratic victories. I know we libertarians are a goofy bunch, what with our legal pot legal gays and that sort of thing, but in the things that truly matter on a national level- taxation, economic regulations, trade, etc- we are one and the same with conservatives. Theres really little you need to do to win us over in huge margins- dont eliminate your socon views, just dont talk about them as much as you attack the adminstrations anti-business anti-growth fiscal policies.
wow this is a long post.
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