KY: Paul Takes Leads From Grayson
A new poll from the state of Kentucky fromSurvey USA now shows Rand Paul ahead of Trey Grayson in the battle for the Republican nomination in Kentucky.
US SENATE – KENTUCKY – GOP PRIMARY (Survey USA)
Rand Paul 35%
Trey Grayson 32%
Roger Thoney 3%
Bill Johnson 2%
Brian Oerther 1%US SENATE – KENTUCKY – DEM PRIMARY (Survey USA)
Dan Mongiardo 39%
Jack Conway 28%
Lillie Miller-Johnson 5%
Darlene Fitzgerald Price 2%
Maurice Marion Sweeney 1%
Unfortunately for the GOP, while Paul leads the primary, he is the worst General Election candidate for the GOP.
US SENATE – KENTUCKY (Survey USA)
Trey Grayson (R) 43%
Jack Conway (D) 39%Trey Grayson (R) 48%
Dan Mongiardo (D) 38%Jack Conway (D) 44%
Rand Paul (R) 39%Rand Paul (R) 43%
Dan Mongiardo (D) 43%
This poll was done October 30-November 2 among 1770 registered voters, 448 likely GOP voters and 602 likely Democratic voters.
Uno
Paul up? Terriffic. Is he as nutty as is dad? Why don’t we just hand Reid another senate vote.
Paul? Oh brother. Prepare for the blitz of Pauliacs today.
Remember how convinced they were that the old man was going to be POTUS?
There was a guy on here for a while during that time who kept spouting nonsense about a convention in WV that was going to propel Paul to POTUS.
Phil,
Stu Rothenberg and Amy Walter, two big anti -GOP pollsters said last night that the DEMS are in deep trouble for one big Reason.
“The results of the 2009 Vote says one thing clearly, the Democrats time of running against George Bush are over! This is now Obama’s economy, and if he does not correct it, the DEM’s will lose big in 2010″
If Paul wins the nomination, then I have to revise my Senate prediction down 1.
I know, I know, there are a gazillion reasons why Paul will win. Yea, sure.
This IS going to be a long day folks.
Paul is a joke like his father. Grayson will win this seat.
Problem is we will give up his his Sec of State post to a DEM Governor.
Ron Paul is my congressman and has been since we moved out of Tx 22nd 4 years ago. He runs unopposed in the primary every two years. My wife and I just shake our heads.
I think this is very typical of the Paul Polling method. Paul ran 10-15 percent in some polls in 2008 as his supporters actually over polled. Grayson wins twice in 2008 in KY
MD, we have to allow primaries. Best way to unite GOP.
Once GOP voters Kentucky see how badly Paul does in a General election they will reject him.
Paul should run for the House.
Is this person related to Rube Paul?
Campaign Spot
Sarah Palin, Primary-Nullifier
Mark Kirk’s very public message to Sarah Palin, asking for an endorsement in his bid for Illinois’s Senate seat in 2010, doesn’t ipso facto mean that he thinks he would lose a primary to a conservative challenger without her seal of approval. But he knows that her thumbs-up could cut off any serious primary rival at the knees.
So he’ll kiss the ring or anything else he has to kiss to avoid a money, energy, and time-consuming GOP primary fight. Is she King-Maker? Not quite; but she’s Primary-Nullifier.
#10
I think he is his son.
GPO I am an IL Conservative. Kirk is a good man and a Veteran.
He is our only shot. In the past we have several good people like Kirk get bounced in the Primary only to then lose the General big to the DEMS.
The reason we have loser Dick Durbin
I listened to a local talk show this morning interview Congressman Lamar Smith (Tx R). He says the Omamacare vote is on for 6 PM Saturday.
When have you last ever heard of a bill being voted on over a Saturday – let alone 6 PM on Saturday evening? You gotta be kidding. Talk about slipping a bill thru under the cover of darkness.
For all of you that keep telling us “Obamacare is dead”, just keep telling yourselves that. This is Dems one chance in American history to ram this though and they aren’t about to let this opportunity go by the wayside.
A lottery will be held to see which lucky blue dogs will be allowed to vote no to save their political asses. However, just enough blue dogs in the least of the vulnerable conservative districts will be required to walk the plank.
Look for the vote to be something like 219 – 216 in favor. Miraculously just enough blue dogs happen to vote with Pelosi to pass this monstrosity. Then watch those lucky 35 Dems preordained to vote no go home and crow about how they stood against Obamacare. What a joke and what a tragedy for America.
Phil
What station do you listen to?
Phil it will not work.
They did that in 1994 with the Tax Raises by Clinton. most of the blue dogs who voted no then, lost anyway.
HC will destroy the DOW, no way it passes.
Many non blue Dogs will be in trouble too. Not every DEM in a Red district is a Blue Dog.
Foster, Halverson, and Bean here in IL are not.
Pelosi would need at 240 votes for this thing to look credible. Anything close makes the Bill look like Partisan crap.
If this passes, Voters back home will ask Blue Dogs who voted no, why the hell do you vote for Pelosi as Speaker then?
#14:
I saw something just like this in 2003, when the House scheduled a 15 minute vote on Passage of the Medicare Bill on a Friday night. The 15 minute vote was kept open for several hours, until it had 218 votes. Then, it was immmediately cut off. Of course, it was by then, nearly 6am on a Saturday morning. And, nobody noticed….
If voters are going to punish Democrats for any HC bill, it is not going to be enough for any particular congressperson to have voted no. It will be a broad-brush punishment.
Ask Gordon Smith of Oregon how opposing Bush on Iraq helped him. Voters in general are not very big on nuance.
Tim, the relevance is very different. Not a socialist bill in 2003
Besides in 2003 the Senate was 51-49 GOP, the DEMS had a strong Filibuster
For what it’s worth, I’m supporting Rand (made a couple of small donations and probably will again today)
Right Sam. Even Beltway DEMS like Rothenberg and Sabato are saying because of the wipeout the DEMS had in blue Jersey and Swing VA, the Liberal days of running against Bush are over.
The Economy is everything, Obama owns it and if it does not improve the dEMS will get wiped out in 2010 and lose Re-Districting.
Julstol you won that PENN Scotus Seat Congrats
Actually we won 6 out of 7 statewide seats on the high courts (Supreme, Superior, and Commonwealth) and the 7th has gone to a recount.
Jul, Great. Any chance the Right will sweep in 2010? GOV, Senate, House in PA
Tim, any predictions on the Atlanta Mayoral runoff?
They are saying Norwood is secretly GOP and Reed is a former Black Panther.
Jason,
MDefl is a better prognosticator than I but here’s what I think will happen:
We will win the Gov and Senate seats and retake the state Assembly and possibly add to our majority in the State Senate.
We will pick up Sestak’s old seat and defeat Kanjorski, Altmire, and Dahlkemper.
We may defeat Murphy, Holden, and Carney if it’s a REALLY good year.
Murtha will lose when Hell freezes over.
Chek – It was on KPRC Houston.
Paul Ryan said that the Dems are willing to lose their seats over HC. I think the Dems are in a bind. If they don’t pass the public option, their base will be pissed. If they do pass the public option, they will lose the indies and seniors. They are in a box.
Not really Chek. Their base has nowhere else to go. Dems know their base will be with them come election time.
If Rand wins the seat is gone. A shame too, Grayson could win this one for the GOP. But the percentages only add up to 73%, lots of undecideds, and plenty of time to expose Rand as a nutcase.
I share the concerns of Phil in #14. I am not saying I know how its going to turn out, but look at Pelosi’s attitude after the election. It means little to her how many people suffer, and how many Dems suffer at the ballot box, she is going to ram this through. Getting it through is the goal at all costs. Because they know that once its through it will never be repealed.
31…Why is Rand a nutcase?
“Murtha will lose when Hell freezes over.”
Sad, but I think it’s true. But I sure hope I am wrong and MD is right.
Uh, you don’t read much do you Darrell. His father is a nutcase and if you read about the son they are cut from the same cloth.
Yep, a vote on one of the most important and far reaching bills ever proposed with unlimited effect on our economy and on individuals will be held at 6 PM on a weekend – and the American people will wake up Monday morning and wonder “what happened?”.
Unbelievable. Not a word in the media. Unbelievably, almost nothing about the schedule even from the conservative media.
CFG:
32/59
Patrick Hughes, a candiate for the GOP senate nomination in Illinois, just got endorsed by Mike Ditka. So, maybe Mark Kirk wants to counter that with an endorsement from Sarah Palin. I’m just saying.
35…well, I do read quite a bit. I know that I would rather have Ron Paul as president than Obama. I am not saying he was electable, but as a politician Ron Paul is not all bad either. My question was not a trick one, I just would like you to spell out what makes you think he is nutty. I have my reservations about him, and my disagreements with him, but “nutty” is a little over the top when you consider who sits in the Oval office and who sits in the VP chair.
And are you sure that Rand is exactly the same as his dad?
Just,
Add Murtha to the list. He CAN be defeated in this cycle. He is for single payor (vocally) and voted for Crap and Tax after telling his constituents he would be a no vote. Go check out the demographics of the district. He is going down.
Also, PA 7 is running a candidate that is perfect for that district, Patrick Meehan.
Whether or not Pelosi conjures up a HC bill is immaterial. It has to also pass the Senate. Will not happen.
On another topic, there is a good editorial in the WSJ today about a “Permanent Tea Party Movement.” The GOP needs to get on board with this now. People are mad at all politicians regardless of party, and the first party to recognize this and address the REAL issues will be the winner.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704013004574515453039975302.html
Add another American metaphor to the political landscape: the cattle stampede. Independent voters across the U.S. have become like the massive cattle herd John Wayne drove from Texas to Kansas in “Red River.” These voters are spooked and on the run, a political stampede that veered left in November 2008 and now right a mere year later. They will keep running—crushing incumbents, candidates and political models of the left and right—through November 2010 and onto 2012 until they find a person or party capable of leadership appropriate to our unsettled times. And yes, Virginia, the possibility of a man on a white horse in 2012 is not out of the question.
Phil,
It will never reach cloture in the Senate. If it does then the Senate will be in play in 10.
42 – Also the GOP will run specifically on repealing HC and have a mandate to force it to happen, including shutting down the Government.
Their base has nowhere else to go. Dems know their base will be with them come election time.
They didn’t come out to vote on Tuesday.
#39
I don’t think it matters if they are different. The opposition will have a great message to pound on the voters.
When DEMS from political families run, it’s a calling, e.g., Kennedy, Cuomo
When Republicans from political families run, it’s nepotism.
Actually, I don’t believe Democrats – even blue dogs think they’re in as much electoral danger as we are assuming they are in.
Congressman Smith said this morning that he is hearing that the Dem leadership believes they are lookng at maybe a loss of 20 House seats and breaking even in the senate. He says the leadership might even be ok with the loss of 20 moderates. It will just make their caucus more cohesively left and easier to manage with, still, a nice 20 vote majority. In the house there is no such thing as a filibuster. If you are in the majority you can do about anything you want in the final analysis. The house is pretty much a dictatorship of the majority.
I am not certain that Pelosi has the votes. There are a lot of Blue Dogs and a lot of freshman congresspersons, and all of them are worried. If the Abortion funding stays in the bill, I think it loses. Maybe Pelosi is just giving the Progs the kabuki theatre they are demanding. Go through the motions, cant get the votes, I tried.
If she does pass something its 218 or 219. Not a real strong bargaining position in the conference committee where losing one vote means it will not pass after conference.
There are 80 seats or more potential at risk. A vote for this by 40 of them is drawing a target on their own backs. So let them.
“I am not saying he was electable, but as a politician Ron Paul is not all bad either.”
Oh please. Ron Paul is a loony crackpot. He wants to go back to the gold standard. He thinks we brought 9/11 on ourselves. He says Israel “create Hamas” and the U.S. “created Bin Laden”. He thinks we can live in a cocoon and not don’t need a foreign policy. He is a laughingstock, a cult figure.
Darrell, nutty is perfectly ok for Ron Paul. Obama is not nuts, he is just a committed socialist with an agenda to implement his ideology, nothing crazy about him. The analogy doesn’t work at all.
44…at least they didn’t in VA. I still am laughing about what I saw when I walked into the gymnasium to vote in my Dem leaning neighborhood. It was over the LUNCH hour for crying out loud. A year ago the place was packed with a 300 foot line out the door. I walked in on Tuesday and there were four tables with 8 workers, receiving lines of voters by last name A-D, E-J, ect., and there simply were NO lines, nobody. The only other voter in the building was one person in one of the 12 voting booths. The others were all empty.
Still rejoicing here over the VA GOP tsunami.
MD, you are right, the House bill as written will never pass cloture in the Senate. However, the senate version will be merged in conference and then passed by both houses and hailed in the media as the “compromise” conference version. That version will not include a “public option” but will be terrible in every way – mandades, penalties, bureacracy, huge cost, you name it.
“He says the leadership might even be ok with the loss of 20 moderates.”
That will be comforting for all 50 blue dogs, I am sure. I hope the leadership has cleared it with them.
“Uh, we are comfortable with uh, 20 of you going down. We don’t know which 20, don’t really care. But our remaining caucus will be, uh, more cohesive.”
If I were a blue dog I would be thrilled with this approach.
49…can we at least agree that Biden is nutty?
I don’t disagree with some of your points about about Ron Paul. I have even sensed that many of his followers are anti-semitic. Can’t say for sure if he is. I agree with you that his foreign policy is too isolated and naive. But fiscally, I cannot find too much fault with him, and fiscal is what we need right now.
But don’t get me wrong, I am not, nor have I ever been a Paul supporter, but I am just saying he isn’t all bad either.
Phil. what do expect a dem to say “we are going to lose 60 seats”. That would be beyond dumb for him to do that. They are on their way to losing 60 seats. They would lose 20 seats even if unemployment went back down to 8%.
Hugh, you know that and I know that. Lamar Smith’s point was that Democrats don’t believe it. They just came off their best two election cycles since 64 and a lot of them really think things aren’t gonna be that bad. I believe they are, BUT…..if they don’t then they are going to ram thru the bill.
“He is for single payor (vocally) and voted for Crap and Tax after telling his constituents he would be a no vote”
Does it matter what Murtha is for or against? He falsely accused Marines of murder. His cut and run policy for Iraq was proven wrong. Everyone in his district knows about his ethical problems. It has no impact.
What matters is that he brings home the bacon and has everyone in his pocket that has any influence in the district. Count me among those that says he only leaves in a box.
49…can we at least agree that Biden is nutty?
Oh, absolutely we agree there.
We had a great candidate against Murtha in 08. Everyone knew of his outrageous statements and ethical problems. He still won by 15 points.
The average off year loss for the party in power is 17 seats. If you believe these are average times, I have some wonderful ocean view property in Montana that is temperate year round that I will let you have for a steal.
Keep going, and its at least possible that when its only a couple votes, that a Gene Taylor and friend vote for a speaker other than the prog candidate so keep that in mind too.
Hugh – spot on. You know things are bad when a party says, “we are going to lose 20 seats”. That is code for, “Oh crap, we are in big trouble”.
I am assuming that Pelosi and Reid will not both be able to pass HC. If that happens, even a compromise then I will revise my predictions upwards for the mids. Right now, I have R +48 and R +6.
AARP is permantely damaging themselves. I expect them to lose a couple of hundred thousand members over the next 6 months.
Phil,
Throw 08 out. It was a 22 standard deviation event.
Gary, I don’t believe these are average times. They aren’t. What’s important to Obamacare passage is what the Democratic leadership insulated inside their beltway lefty cacoon think.
They’re gonna try and ram it through. Theyve never had the votes like this in congress and realize that after 2010 won’t again anytime soon.
Phil,
The R’s can run on reversing the damage. It is the perfect scenario. Obama is not on the ballot and they just don’t get the turnout they need.
Relax, have a cream soda!
AARP is an absolute disgrace.
I have only see a little of Rand Paul but he does come across as a nice guy and a person of intergity.
I do not think he his Father’s clone.
I think Grayson will need to sell himself to the GOP and prove that is the elected nominee and not the selected nominee.
I see the Paul name is inspiring some aggressive poll responses.
60…I recall reading an article years ago talking about the folks leaving the AARP because they were going left.
Need to call it the AALRP
American Association of Liberal Retired persons.
If the gop did nothing they would lose 15-20 seats, that’s nearly unavoidable for nancy – she’s thinking she might as well get something for it. Losing more then 20 would take an intelligent and coordinated effort on the part of the GOP, Nancy rightfully thinks GOP will screw that up, can’t say I blame her, of course if she’s wrong she loses 40 seats.
HC passes the house by hook or crook.
I remember the Clinton impeachment vote was late on a saturday, the cap and tax bill was 6pm on a Friday, if memory serves some of the immigration bills were also at night, not typical but unheard of though, nope.
Great KY at potential risk again?
The Cinton impeachment was indeed on Saturday. It was in the morning however. Saturday is not unprecedented but it’s rare. Never heard of a bill passed on a Saturday night.
Why not vote on it Monday morning. The answer is obvious of course.
“We had a great candidate against Murtha in 08.”
—
Had a good candidate in 2006 as well. Not to mention last year we had Murtha calling his own constituents racist rednecks… they don’t care, they may have voted for McPain but still voted for this corrupt piece of chit again.
69 – Because sunlight can be a disinfectant.
Since nothing starts in the bill for years ( their little financing trick ) it will be simple to have a new vote to defund with the 80 new congress members and the new scared straight Senate.
I say “go ahead punk, make my day.”
“You have to ask yourself was that five shots, or six. I have lost count.”
Please go and check House demographics and voting patterns.
If the scenario from NJ and VA is repeated across the country in 2010, Dems are looking at losing anywhere between 60-95 seats in the House.
All this talk of possible limit of 20 seat loss is nothing but happy talk and propaganda.
Stu Rothenberg, Nate Silver and Charlie Cook would not be sounding the alarms right now if they thought they would lose only 20 seats, and break even in the Senate.
Gary, a new bill to defund? That would take a 2/3 vote in both houses to override the messiah’s veto.
Two Conservatives won NY Supreme Courts seats.
GOP takes back Nassau Govt
Conservative wins Westchester Chairmanship(Clinton Home)
Nassau County Chairman Race too close too call
This means more as a Bellweather than Ny-23
Since nothing starts in the bill for years ( their little financing trick ) it will be simple to have a new vote to defund with the 80 new congress members and the new scared straight Senate.
Comment by Gary Maxwell
With obammer in the white house, he would veto any such attempt.
Looks like another ~175k jobs were lost in October.
Over at Hot Air, they are finally sounding the alarm regarding the Saturday night vote.
Morrisy has a good point. He says that doing this will just add to skeptisism of the bill among blue dogs. Of course, my point, is that blue dogs are frauds using the name “blue dogs” as cover to get elected in red districts. They want the bill to pass.
While 2008 was by no means a typical election year, the fact that Murtha won so easily against William Russell while McCain was winning the district (which had given President Bush only 43% back in 2000) means that Murtha still gets a lot of conservative votes. Republicans need to make voters in the PA-12 aware of just how crooked Murtha is and just how liberal he votes in Washington.
Yeah I was surprised to see the GOP win in Westchester (the DA slot too).
74 – If the GOP runs specifically on repeal or defunding and wins big, they will have a mandate. That mandate will include shutting down the government and they should make it clear that they will do that if BHO vetoes any repeal.
People are tired of the status quo and looking for fiscal leadership. Either we do it, or someone else will.
Sam, especially Rothenberg. On PBS he said the DEMS are in big trouble because there reason for winning in 2006 and 2008 was Bush.
Tuesday proves Bush is forgotten, Obama owns the economy and Afghan now.
Obama must produce.
When liberals say on TV that hey are actually going to lose any seats, they are now they are toast in 2010.
#63 Only to a point. If Obamacare gets rammed through, it will be almost impossible to get rid of. Look at the UK and other Western nations. Setting up a govt buearocracy is easy. Getting rid of one?
Impossible without a two thirds majority in both houses which NO party is going to get anytime soon.
-Polaris
79 – Russell did that last year, now granted there is a much more solid evidence against him this year, but something tells me his constituents will simply not give a dam.
Hawk DA also? If the GOP wins this tight race for Nassau County Chair, that shows Pataki or Guliani could win Gillenbrand’s seat or the Governorship
#83 – Correct, let alone there isn’t even a hope of getting the senate back till 2012.
That mandate will include shutting down the government and they should make it clear that they will do that if BHO vetoes any repeal.~~~knova
When the first social security check bounces, that would come to a screeching halt,and the anointed one would never sign a repeal.
87 – You make sure that SS and Medicare are taken care of first. Separate bills.
Felix – Actually I was wrong, someone had told me last night on the phone that the gop picked up the DA slot, I just checked and seems DiFiore won again (she was a republican when she first won, turned democrat for this election, so I think that’s where my buddy got confused).
#87 Absolutly. The Govt handout is a very addictive thing and it’s why Social Security is often called the third rail of politics.
If Obamacare gets passed, it will be almost impossible to get rid of, and that’s the whole idea (for the Dems) and it’s why Pelosi is trying to ram it in now before the GOP runs out the clock.
If Obamacare is not passed by Nov 2010, it’s never going to be. The Dems know that as well as we do.
-Polaris
Media spin on 175K job loss – Much better numbers than September. Number beat expectations blah, blah, blah
Any of you see V the other night when the news anchor sat down with the cute alien for the big interview.
He asks, “is there any last minute thing you want to go over with before we start the interview and the cameras roll”
She says, “yes, don’t ask any questions that might put us in a bad light”
He say “I can’t do that. I’m a journalist, I have to ask tough questions”
She says “then this interview is cancelled”
“But I promise to be fair”
She says “you will have to be more than fair or there will be no interview”
Reminded me of our media and the Obama administration and our knee pad MSM.
Have any of the experts, i.e., Barone, done an analysis of what impact a GOP wave in 2010 would do for redistricting?
That with continuing population losses in the northeast could have long term effects.
Knight, we could see a wave in NY .
Looking at NY Seats and data, I see a possible pickup of 6 to 10 Congressional Seats in NY alone.
All the seats the DEMS have won in the last elections-2006 to present, compare to these areas where the gOP gained Tuesday locally.
What????…
A candidate is asking for Palin’s help even AFTER NY-23???…
Hold on a second…
All knowing CHEKOSI told us that Palin was “polarizing” to the GOP?!?…
Surely Kirk must be mistaken since CHEKOSI told us differently yesterday..
Polaris, it is finished in 2009. Primaries in IL are in FEB.
92 – Nothing about redistricting here, but Barone’s take on Tuesday’s election:
Tuesday’s Biggest Loser: the Union Agenda
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704013004574515681098665524.html
Bill “I want to give Obama the benefit of the doubt” O Reilly came out strongly against Obamacare last night. He said it would be an absolute disaster.
any guess on turnout for bachman’s rally today ?
The GOP will win enough in 2010 to provide a solid Filibuster.
2012 and 2014 Will be awful for the Senate DEMS. They will have defend twice as many Seats as the GOP in both Years.
#93 – maybe but come 2012 there will be a couple less seats in the state total so it’s short lived.
Polaris – “If Obamacare is not passed by Nov 2010, it’s never going to be.” Actually if they wanted to be pricks they could do much damage between November 2010 and January 2011, assuming the senate would play ball – which it probably would not.
Knova Unions spent 2 Million alone on the PENN SCOTUS Race and lost.
#95 Oh no it’s not. There is nothing more dangerous than a cornered rat. The liberal Dems know they are going to lose big in 2010 so they are going to push and push hard using every available trick to get this passed this year while they still have the numbers.
As Samuel Johnson once said, “The prospect of being hung tomorrow concentrates the mind wonderfully.”
The GOP HAS to sit on this monstrosity until the next congress is seated.
-Polaris
97 – He’s been saying that since Mrs piggy unveiled the 2000 pager.
100. I hear the NY State Senate is still close. the gOP could take that back in 2010 stop The Redistricting up there.
I posted a link the other that showed +60 or so house seats are held by democrats who were districts that McCain won or just barely lost.
We need candidates-a message-money-volunteers.
In 2010 we will have a stinko economy. That’s almost a given.
Democrats are going to pay for Obama’s policies. Its just a question of how much
Hunter,
Don’t incent Chekote to defend the anti-palin nonsense.
I’m not sure I could take another day of that.
The insanity continues on unabated.
98 – I don’t know, heard could be “thousands”. Who knows if that means two thousand or 10 thousand, the more the merrier, I was disappointed she asked that people leave thier pitch forks at home though, instead bringing their cellphone and video cameras.
Tar and feathers optional.
Polaris we all know the Senate is a different Creature than the House.
The House is more fluid, if you lose your seat, you can run again in 2 years and get it back.
Senate is modern day Roman. You lose you are finished. Your seat is Power, you will not give it up and pass a bill that the voters hate, just to appease San Fran Politicians and Radical from Chicago.
Senate is for life, Prez comes and goes.
Senate panel approves Democratic climate bill:
“With Republicans boycotting the environment panel’s measure, saying more analysis of the legislation was needed, 10 Democrats approved the bill and one Democrat, Senator Max Baucus, voted against it.”
http://www.reuters.com/article/politicsNews/idUSTRE5A42WB20091105
D.QUIXOTE – Boxer: “Rules and protocols…who needs stinking rules and protocols!” I hope the gop remembers all this when they get the senate back and rams it right back down their necks – but they will not.
Redel, the taxes alone on Healthcare ,if passed ,will give us a base of 30 Seats and 6 Governorships.
#111 – Yup passed out of committee without the customary single vote from the minority. Wooohooo Hope and Change continues!!!
108- i think there was not enough advance notice. congress didnt listen at the townhalls or 9/12, why would they listen now ?
114 – There was a vote against it from Bacus. That is all we need to stop it, and there will be more NO votes from Dems on this one anyway.
I was bummed about Hoffman, but as I look at races nationally and locally, I can just smile.
All these GOP wins were in Obama 2008 States.
When Democrats admit will lose any seats on TV, it means to double waht they say.
Even in 1994 they said they would break even on CNN.
#110 Yes I know the Senate is a different creature, but for their majority, the senate relection map actually is favorable to the Dems. There aren’t a lot of pickup opportunities in the Senate (unlike the House) and that means there will be less panic over reelection.
Make no mistake, 2012 and 2014 are going to be Dem bloodbaths in the Senate. 2010? Not so much. Expect the GOP to gain seats getting it’s fillibuster power back, but I only expect a net gain of 5 or so. The climate will be completely favorable but the map won’t be.
-Polaris
Probably not TimV which is why if a couple thousand actually do show up I’ll be very surprised, plus it’s mid-week, however a couple thousand pissed of constituents wondering the halls of congress, and thousands more showing up at local offices demanding answers does bring a smile to my face. Will it do any good on the vote? Probably not, but these llama can’t say they were not warned.
gop healthcare plan
http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/blogs/beltway-confidential/CBO-Prepublican-health-plan-would-reduce-premiums–69270747.html
wondering = wandering.
#119
Thursday is a bad day to organize protests. Especially if the target audience is people who work for a living.
kh. i have been scanning longwar journal lately and it sounds to me like some progress is being made in pakistan
#120 – I’m sure Nancy will get right on bring that up for a vote, lol. Let it not be said there was not an alternative proposed though.
A gain of 5 in 2010 would be a tidlewave considering the number of Republican open seats up and the number of Republican seats at risk. I mean if we sweep the close races in Mo, Ohio, NH, and Florida that is a net 0 pickup for the GOP. They are all open seats. We’ll knock off Reid and Bennett in Col for sure. I like our chances getting Specter and Dodd as well. Well, now that I think of it, that’s 4 right there.
#123 – Maybe.. Maybe not, This is like round 43 of this game over there, we’ll know the seriousness of the latest campaign in month or so when they stop it or continue to push it.
open GOP seats I meant to say
#125 That’s right, Phil. The map doesn’t help the GOP at all this year. I may be overestimating the number, but I really do thing there will be 1994 type GOP tailwinds in 2010 which is why at this pint I am guessing a GOP gain of 5 seats in the senate.
-Polaris
Democrats still on TV lying about NY 23 being held by a Republican since the Civil War. And the media, including Fox, still not correcting the lie.
Interesting articles about O-care on foxnews.com
- Current CBO estimate assumes that $167B will be revenue from fines. I guess they think some 8-14 million people will refuse to sign up.
- You’ll have to wait six months if uninsured before you can get benenfits. As a DR said, that’s hell if you have cancer.
- Rep. Wilson wants Congress to be required to use this plan.
#122 – Remember thought the vote was scheduled for Friday, not in her control. Yes it is hard for people to get there who have jobs, even so I know a 2 woman who are going, one took today and tomorrow off and other is stay-home mom, they were leaving overnight to head to DC, both no good pissed off racist teabaggers from atlanta.
Did someone say Sarah Palin????
Obamacare: The cure for what ails the GOP.
-Polaris
In Indiana, the Dems took over the House in 1990, when Bayh was Gov. they have redistricted twice (1990 and 2000). The only times that the GOP had the House was for the two years after ‘94 and ‘04. This is despite the fact that statewide votes for House candidates routinely favor the GOP by a range of 53-47 to as high as 55-45.
Right now the Dems have the House 52-48. So a shift of 2 seats (GOP has the tiebreaker) or more in 2010 (which I think it very likely given the GOP tsunami that is developing) would give the GOP power to redistrict. (The GOP has a permanent lock on the State Senate).
This would mean that Baron Hill and Ellsworth could see a lot of GOP voters from South of INdianapols added to their districts.
One wrinkle is that their is a budding movement (started by some well placed GOP elected officials) to turn redistricting over to a neutral commission who would be powerless by state law to use political criteria. I think the idea here is that it is good PR for the GOP to push this through, and since the state vote is GOP anyway, redistricing in this fashion would ultimately favor the GOP anyway.
The Dems have boxed themselves in a corner with HC. People care about jobs, jobs, jobs and they are wasting the political capital on pushing for government HC and climate change.
#129 – Your know people here had been repeating that same bs as well. A simple trip to wiki would have pointed out it wasn’t really true, not that it really matters.
BTW, how is the closing of Gitmo going?
#137 – Most excellent don’t you know, seems the WH thinks khalid sheikh mohammed should maybe get constitutional rights! Isn’t that just dandy?
#135 Indeed they have, Chek. Now assuming the Dems aren’t complete idiots (and whatever we think of them, Obama, Pelosi, and Reid are NOT idiots), consider why they did so.
They have to know about the risks of healthcare reform. 1993 was not all that long ago and the economic conditions were far more favorable than now…and the Dems got pounded for it anyway. All three have to know that Obama was elected with a mandate to FIX the economy and FIX what was wrong in washington using moderate means.
So why this hyper-liberal Chimera?
POWER
This is all about political POWER. If Obamacare gets passed, then the Dems will never (in the long term) lose a national election again.
-Polaris
120 “gop healthcare plan”
It doesn’t look much like reform at all, just tweaking. The CBO even said the percentage of uninsured adults would remain the same. So what is it reforming? I’m all for the tort reform. It’s already been done in Texas and it’s not the panacea republicans would have us believe it is. I wish democrats would just take that idea and roll with it. At least it would give the republicans one less thing to complain about.
But the insurance across state lines business seems to me irrelevant. Lots of smaller insurance companies are region-specific and have worked out deals with local providers. Big companies like Aetna and United already compete in most states. I have United, and I looked up the equivalent of my plan in 10 or 12 zip codes across the country and the price is within $5-7 per month of what I pay. It was slightly cheaper in WI, slightly more in FL. The states that are more are those small rural ones and those that have mandated a higher level of coverage. It seems to me that selling insurance across state lines would require states to equalize their coverage standards and health care regulations, or else it would be pointless for me to buy the coverage they sell in, say, Louisiana.
“You’ll have to wait six months if uninsured before you can get benenfits. As a DR said, that’s hell if you have cancer”
—
SO who’s plan exactly is it that wants people to DIE QUICKLY?
lol
Phil, Dorgan is gone if Hoeven Runs in ND. And if Byrd resigns we would ahve a Special in WVA. Kirk is a toss up in IL. The IL Dems big hitters passed.
But I agree. I am hoping for a strong Filibuster.
AATX,
I think the state lines deregulation would have a lot more impact than you think. Prices (and premiums) go down when industries get deregulated. I see no reason why health insurance should differ.
I also note that the medical procedures that cost the most (when compared to their complexity and cost) are the ones that insurance won’t cover (i.e. Lasic). Funny how medical prices go down when the patient is actually the one footing the bill.
I do know this: The GOP plan is a lot better than the monstrosity that Pelosi just introduced.
-Polaris
“just tweaking.”
—
Exactly! There is no need to fix what is not broken, course I don’t expect you to agree.
A Senate Filibuster and a close or GOP House makes Obama a tin man.
The significance of knocking off the Majority leader will be huge.
Who on the dEM side can be majority leader.
Schumer is a schmuck, Hillary left?
DRUDGE…
Pelosi’s Government-Run Health Plan Will Require Monthly Abortion Premium
The CBO even said the percentage of uninsured adults would remain the same.
Most people are concerned about higher premiums. Most of the uninsured are either illegals, young people who choose not to buy insurance and poor people who qualify for existing programs but don’t sign up.
It’s already been done in Texas and it’s not the panacea republicans would have us believe it is.
The reform has already had the effect of attracting many doctors to Texas. As the supply of doctors goes up, prices will come down. Basic supply and demand. Oh wait, you are a liberal. Basic economics is not something you would understand.
Yes, Dorgan is indeed gone if Hoeven runs. He is a shadow lurking over Dorgan’s shoulder. With the winds blowing the way they are, it makes it more likely that Hoeven runs.
Senate filibuster back in play in 2011. That’s why Dems determined to ram their Obamacare, cap and trade leftist agenda through now. (crap and tax aint getting through in any event).
Also AATX,
How many “uninsured” are we really talkng about anyway? We both know that the 40million figure is hugely inflated. A good portion of those are illegals who aren’t going to be covered regardless (political poison to do that), and another good portion are young people who don’t WANT health insurance.
Do you really think it’s constitutional for FORCE a citizen to buy a govt good or service as a condition of citizenship? [Hint, the preamble is just that....the preamble. It grants no powers.]
Also a number of uninsured are already covered by Medicare/caid or S-Chip and don’t know it.
Near as I can tell, the number of true uninsured may be in the 5-10 millions tops. Hardly the same level of problem.
-Polaris
#146
That’s the least of the problem with Obamacare. I do hope the GOP doesn’t turn this into a debate over social issues. Abortion is a constitutional right. There is no frickin’ way a judge will not rule that it needs to be covered should the government plan pass.
Polaris they said that in 1945 England. After the war Churchill lost to a Socilaist Atlee. They passed health Care with no Tory Support and Conservatives were left for dead.
The British took back power in 1951 and held it until 1964.
Americans would like Health Care at first but would frown on it and punish the DEMS like they did in Britain.
147
Chek – The last paragraph of your post is dead on about Texas.
146. Botox got to her brain.
She is now taunting Pro-Life Dems. The only thing this does is make the House DEMS look more radical and scares off the DEM Senate
150. Chekote you are not getting it. The GOP has not been at the front of the Abortion Debate. It has been Pro-Life DEM’s like Stupak.
150….
abortion is a BIG issue with many blue dogs. This monthly premium bit is going to be hammered home with them from now till Saturday. Teh Dem leadership is not the only ones lobbying intensely here.
#151 The so-called Conservatives in the UK have never been the same since NHS was passed. NHS is the fourth rail in UK politics and any conservative in the UK that dares to criticize it is dead on arrival.
Basically what I said it right. What happened in the UK is that the entire political spectrum shifted to the left and hugely to the left.
Also the UK has different population demographics than the US.
In the US it will be a one-two punch:
1. Pass Socialist Healthcare.
2. Pass Amnesty and get those former illegal aliens on the govt teet and voting Democratic.
Presto. One party state.
-Polaris
150…. I understand your view on abortion, but if you are as opposed to the Health Care takeover as much as you let on, you don’t leave any arrows in the quiver. Many blue dogs do NOT want to vote for a bill that allows tax funding of abortion. You USE that to persuade them to take a pass on this version and vote NO. For that reason. To many of them, this is a deal breaker.
Wahooooooooo!!!
Go RAND GO !!!
The revolution continues
#154 Absolutely correct, and IMHO that’s been good for the GOP. Let the conservative Dems take the abortion issue front and center if they like.
Just sit back and say, “This isn’t going to work” When it doesn’t (and it won’t), the voters will give the GOP a chance to try it their way. It’s then incumbant on the GOP not to foul up the opportunity.
-Polaris
156. 3. Succession.
The last time one party ruled for a long period of time was FDR, and half of that was the war Years. 1933-1947.
Americans will not allow it.
Dems had 1961-69 but they felt sorry for JFK
pro aborts win in obamacare
Unfortunately, Speaker Pelosi’s 2,032-page government takeover of health care does just that. On line 17, p. 110, section 222 under “Abortions for which Public Funding is Allowed” the Health and Human Services Secretary is given the authority to determine when abortion is allowed under the government-run plan. The Speaker’s plan also requires that at least one insurance plan offered in the Exchange covers abortions.
What is even more alarming is that a monthly abortion premium will be charged of all enrollees in the government-run plan. It’s right there on line 16, page 96, section 213, under “Insurance Rating Rules.” The premium will be paid into a U.S. Treasury account – and these federal funds will be used to pay for the abortion services.
“Pelosi’s Government-Run Health Plan Will Require Monthly Abortion Premium”
—-
Hahahaha that will go over just great with most people! Yeah I love contributing towards others’ abortions, where do I sign up?
I was wondering when rudy would drop in and post that.
Can we make the abortion retroactive and apply it “liberally”.
#160 4. Secessionists get their heads pounded in. No way that any invidividual states have anywhere close to the firepower to stand up to the federal govt and NO Federal Govt will deal with secession with anything other than an overt military response…nor should they.
This was settled in the Civil War.
-Polaris
#164 – LOL
Sigh,
Nancy and Harry had the votes in August, September, October and last week. What happened? Nothing.
This is a classic distraction technique to take the story off of Tuesday. I predict no vote this weekend.
165 – There are some trouble makers in Afghanistan and Pakistan that might take issue with that assessment, though I do understand your point.
They have to MD. The longer they wait, the more that comes out about the bill and it gets tougher to sell it.
167 – If they wanted to move the story off of Tuesday this is hardy the way to accomplish it. BTW have these jokes even finished all the current year’s budget bills yet?
#154
What the GOP needs to say is that the game is rigged. Even if the Dems pass a bill that doesn’t cover abortion and illegals, if it passes some group will immediately go to a federal judge who will rule that both abortion and illegals MUST be covered. Again, the game is rigged. Instead of fighting to keep those provisions out, tell the people that judges will decided that and the BEST way to make that abortion and illegals are not covered is to DEFEAT the bill.
#169 Absolutely. Pelosi knows (even if Reid does not) that if Obamacare is going to get passed, it’s going to have to be done this year. Otherwise it may be too hard to twist enough arms with scared constituants in McCain districts.
-Polaris
#155
Don’t fall for the trap. They are making a big deal about abortion and illegals so that once those provisions are taken out of the bill, they can justify supporting it knowning all along that a judge will put those provisions back in. If the blue dogs are truly interested in stopping federal coverage of abortions and illegals, they need to vote against the bill.
162….there are perhaps many who will refuse to pay taxes if the money goes toward abortions. These people will be locked up in jail…so the taxpayer will have to pay to feed them too. Pelosi must be stopped.
A week ago Dan Henninger wrote these words in his WSJ column….
“It’s starting to look like Harry Reid and Nancy Pelosi are leading the Donner Party, the snowbound emigrants who bogged down in the Sierra Nevada winter in the 1840s and resorted to cannibalism to survive.”
That metaphor has stuck in my head ever since. I think it is spot on. They can’t go forward. They can’t turn back. The snow is falling, and the winds are really picking up. Their is no way out. They will be eating themselves by New Years.
I don’t trust judges as far as I can throw most of their fat asses these days. Forget the abortion and chit as if that wasn’t bad enough, how exactly is an individual mandate to purchase health insurance constitutional? Can someone riddle me that?
#175 Yes, but is it possible for anyone to be hungry enough to eat “Leg of Pelosi”?
-Polaris
I’d rather starve
6.8 spead, lowest yet ?
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/other/president_obama_job_approval-1044.html
#176 It’s not (constitutional to require health insurance to be a US citizen). Only the states have that right as ennumerated in the 10th amendment.
However, you don’t think the Dems are going to let a little thing like that stop them, do you?
-Polaris
I wouldn’t rely on constitutional grounds to stop the mandates. They will find a judge that will give them the green light constitutional. The last time we relied on SCOTUS to strike something down what McCain-Feingold. How did that work out?
Who puts the apple in whose mouth?
#181 Oh I agree Chek. I wouldn’t rely on constitutional grounds to stop it either (although it now looks like SCOTUS will gut McCain-Feingold as unconstitutional…which they should have done in the first place).
I am simply saying prima facie that Obamacare is in fact unconstitutional because it gives the federal govt an unenumerated power that is reserved for the states under the 10th amendment.
-Polaris
81…my thoughts exactly.
I meant 181
China bought leases for oil exploration in the Gulf of Mexico.
It must be approved by Interior. How does the O-ministration justify this?
165… I agree. Secessionist talk is silly. BUT I think we need to think outside the box. Perhaps the same result can be achieved by way of Article V of the US Constitution.
Seriously, a large and growing movement of citizens actually contacting their STATE REPS AND STATE SENATORS and demanding that their state legislature call for a Constitutional Convention would do wonders.
YOu wouldn’t actually have to have one. Just a the threat of one would scare the bejeezus out of the elites.
Such a movement could be centered on 1, 2, or 3 issues that would be succinct and powerful enough for a Constitutional Amendment.
The first one could be for Term Limits. It’s simple, popular, and is a rifle shot directly at the heart of lots of the problems we have. Can you imaging a few state legislatures calling for a Const. Conv. to amend the Const to provide for term limits? It would really catch on, and I’d bet you’d see them hopping in DC!!!
That would be a lot better than secession, obviously.
180\181 – My point exactly.
“Rand Paul but he does come across as a nice guy and a person of intergity.”
Wow, isn’t that special? Fortunately, more is needed than that for a Senate seat. But for dog catcher it might just do it.
#187
Unfortunately outside the South and conservative circles any talk of secessions is seen as wanting to restore slavery. Silly but their it is. Secession = racism. Just ask Charles Johnson.
#186 China is our friend according to Obama. They would never do anything to hurt us or give us trouble.
Trust me…..(so sayeth Obama)
-Polaris
“China bought leases for oil exploration in the Gulf of Mexico.”
—
You mean the ones they bought from the Cubans right?
Your not telling me that the US gov sold leases to China are you?
190… did u even read my post (187)?
165. Polaris. INTRADE has HC passing in 2009 at 6%.
191 – As long as they keep buying our debt, I suppose that they are. Really though we should have more in common with the Far East then we do with Old Europe, at least financially.
191..dont forget how Obama praised China during the olympics. Saying that we had nothing on them. They are far ahead of us.
194…yeah…and they had Corzine winning late in the day on Tuesday…and Chicago is already planning for the Olympics based on INTRADE.
#194 I see. Intrade had the inside knowledge.
I’ll be sure to tell Representative Hoffman and Gov Corzine assuming he’s done celebrating his reelection.
-Polaris
Intrade is for suckers. I still think no vote will take place this Sat.
What is going on with the Bachmann protests?
I really think a Constitutional Convention is a great idea.
If the tea party/ Perotista/ angry independent movement really want ot shake things up, it/they should organize to have its members lobby state legislatures to call for a Const Conv to enact term limits.
The Constitution give us the answer to the situation we are facing now…. where politicians and office holders are ignoring the public will and the common weal. It give us the ability, though the states, to fix things ourselves.
Just such a movement getting off the ground would probably force the yahoos in DC to back off.
fox had a shot of the crowd, seemed ok couldn’t really tell the size they cut away too fast.
I really think a Constitutional Convention is a great idea.
No frickin’s way!. Look what they are doing through the courts. Can you imagine what would happen if they actually had a chance to re-write the Constitution?!?!?!?!?!?
come on media.. like a give a crap about ntsb and faa turf wars, and CNN has the critical coverage of iranian leaders website being hacked.
#200 One can hope. The only problem I have with the constitutional convention idea as outlined in Article 5 of the constitution is that a constitutional convention has the power to rewrite the whole bloody constitution.
In the days of 2000 page healthcare bills, is writing a constitution something we really want to leave in the hands of a political committee given their recent track record?
-Polaris
202…. YES THAT IS THE POINT!!!
Just the prospect of one would bring them to heel.
EIB: Thousands have showed up.
#205 I’m not so sure. I think Chek may have the right of it. I think the libs would see this as an opportunity to rewrite the constitution and “get it right” this time. Look at the constitutional monstrosities in Europe and then ask yourself if you really want them to rewrite our constitution.
-Polaris
how exactly is an individual mandate to purchase health insurance constitutional? Can someone riddle me that?
Comment by KnightHawk — November 5, 2009 @ 11:43 am
how exactly is an individual mandate to”contribute” to FICA, constitutional? Can someone riddle me that?
#192
Yes, these are US leases.
#208
It is a federal tax.
Ok looks like high hundreds to me from the two tight shots I’ve seen on fox and cnn.
Look at the constitutional monstrosities in Europe and then ask yourself if you really want them to rewrite our constitution.
-Polaris
Comment by Polaris — November 5, 2009 @ 12:10 pm
What if that”them” happens to be us?? It would still require 3/4 of the states to ratify.
#208 – If I could I would.
The question is who would get to represent hte states at the Const Conv?
2/3 of the states would apply for one.
Then, the Congress SHALL call one.
and Amendments are enacted if ratified by “Convention in three fourths thereof”. So does it mean 3/4 of the states, or 3/4 of the delegates? I say states, since that is what we have always do in these sorts of things.
Taht is a pretty high threshold. Sure there is risk. There is supposed to be. Just making this part of a movement would get lots of results, especially if a lot of conservatives/tea partiers are going to be delegates.
#208 Interstate commerce and the “necessary and proper” clause both permit the Federal Govt to tax you with a Social Security Tax. I admit that it’s a real stretch but that has been the ruling of the Federal Courts since the New Deal.
However, Obamacare is NOT a tax (although it’s collected like one and called one). It’s a fine. It’s a fine for not buying a good and service and that goes over the cosntitutional line.
-Polaris
It is a federal tax.
Comment by Chekote
Allthey need to do is change the fine to a tax.
The 13 amendment authorizes federal taxes. FICA is a tax. So is SS.
#216
Exactly.
Don’t worry, Rand Paul will win.
He is a much better candidate than boring Grayson. He could pick up moderates/independents and could possibly energize young conservatives to vote. He has never held a government position (Eye Doctor) and having the reputation as an outsider will be a tremendous help when campaigning at a time when the government is very unpopular/lacks trust from people and the democrats are trying to make it bigger. He has a national name and could triple the amount of fundraising that Grayson could raise.
#214 Yes, but note how that’s worded. Who would actually call the convention and select the delegates?
Congress (the source of the problem) would.
Thus the libs WOULD get to rewrite the constitution to suit them AND I am sure they could get the courts to “interpret” the 3/4ths clause to be 3/4ths the delegates.
-Polaris
Mark Levin explained that while FDR was telling the American people that SS was an insurance, when it was constitutionally challenge they made the case that it was a tax. The judges bought it.
A Constitutional convention is a bad idea. It would allow people like Obama to promote “positive rights” instead of negative rights.
#216 and #218
Nope. It’s not that easy. In the case of social security, it is a tax. You don’t buy a service, it is given to you. Thus there are not constitutional questions (and it’s not the 13th amendment that permits this, it’s the 16th…allowing for federal income tax).
However, just calling the Healthcare Fine a “Tax” doesn’t pass constitutional muster. If you are charged money for the govt for failing to buy a good or service AND THEN CAN BE JAILED for failing to pay that charge, it’s a legal fine.
Basically it boils down to this: If the insurance in question were part of the govt beauracracy (like SS), then a Health-Tax would be constitutional. However, if you have to pay a fine (even if it’s called a tax) or fail jail time because you fail to buy a PRIVATE commodity, that is unconstitutional and a violation of the 10th amendment.
-Polaris
“I really think a Constitutional Convention is a great idea.”
I don’t. While everyone bickers about that Obama moves ahead with his agenda.
The focus now in my view should be on:
1. Defeating this HC bill, or at least stripping it of its most noxious provisions, and fighting the next bill which will be amnesty.
2. Recruiting, fielding and funding candidates that CAN WIN for all competitive House, without litmus tests, RINO tests, purity tests, etc.
3. Developing an agenda these candidates can run on that offers a stark contrast to Obama’s agenda and how this agenda can make a real difference in people’s lives.
I’m not surprised that the Repubs in KY are going to nominate the least electable candidate. That seems now to be what “Reopublican” stabnds for, nationally, i.e. “unelectable.”
And thank goodness those busybodies areunelectable. Put ‘em in a room with the ACORNS and let ‘em all blog each other to death, I say.
#221 Yes, he had to make that case. However at the time, a person could opt out of Social Security as well with NO legal pitfalls.
That wasn’t changed until that 1960s IIRC.
-Polaris
Frankly, I very much like Pres. Obama’s domestic agenda. I just wish he’d actually DO something about it instead of fiddling and faddling and thinking thinking thinking.
Politics is not for thinker-ers but for DOERS.
#227 Sure you do Mass_Mouth. You’d be the beneficiary of Obama’s agenda.
-Polaris
Sorry, got the wrong amendment.
I just read that Pelosi is swearing in our two newest house members from the recent elections. Are all the votes counted??
I know there are not in NY but I wonder about CA with all those absentee votes.
This seems like a real rush to judgement here.
Of Owens says he is against the public option but have democrats lied before?
Polaris…
I have always appreciated your insight and commentary…
This may be the first time that I disagree… with your last comment in 139…
If Obamacare passes, it will pass as a very watered down version of where it is today…
I think we have to assume that something may pass in the next several months…Given majorities and “tweaks” that can be made to provide cover to the moderate Reps and Dems, something may very well get passed…
Having said that, the economy and a left-wing agenda are clearly the Dems undoing thus far…Even with the passing of some health care legislation, this country is clearly more center-right than Obama and his cronies even imagined…
To think that in 9 months in office he lost two major races?…
even 1 month ago that was unthinkable…
There is significant buyers remorse right now which will show itself again in 2010 and 2012…
Will Obama win re-election?…Maybe…
But I think the national landscape will be vastly different in 2 years…
Yeah, I very much like President Obama’s domestic agenda also. I think the govt should run everything and everyone.
Oh and as for KY and the rest, the GOP both as an organization and it’s rank and file want to WIN first. You can be sure that in the primaries electability will be an issue.
I don’t think you’ll see the NRCC (and GOP) make the same mistakes that they made in NY (or they’d better not if they expect to remain employed).
-Polaris
rally
http://interactive.foxnews.com/livestream/live.html?chanId=1&openAIR=true
http://interactive.foxnews.com/livestream/live.html?chanId=1
This is a rally about healthcare reform and it turned into a whole lecture about God and making the liberals mad. Please stick to the issues. We have the better policies. Let the clergy promote God.
“Don’t worry, Rand Paul will win.”
Rand is a clone of his father, same ideas. If he were to con enough Republicans into nominating him he would be immediately exposed for the nutcases he and is father are and completely demolished as a viable candidate. He appeals to a narrow cult like segment but that won’t win a general election. He is exactly the candidate Republicans don’t need in 2010.
Congrsatulations to Bill Owens.
I’d rather the Republican party die a talk-show host death than elect white retrograde upper-South bigots haters & no-sayers…
Good Gawd. Whatever happened to MY party ? The party of Civil Rights ? Of freedom ? Of Abolition ? Of conservation (Teddy Roosevelt) ? Of big horizons and broad dreams and immigration ?
Back swhen, the “social conservatives” were all Wm Jennings Bryan Democrats. Let ‘em go back to the Democrats and let my Republican party be the party of Teddy Roosevelt again. Even of Barry Goldwater … who was no “social conservative” at all…
The 13 amendment authorizes federal taxes. FICA is a tax. So is SS.
Comment by Chekote
FICA is SS
“I just wish he’d actually DO something about it instead of fiddling and faddling and thinking thinking thinking.”
And we lost to these guys???
#236
Yup!
#231 I hope you’re right hunter. I don’t think we even disagree as to the nature and direction of the electorate.
However, I think that given this clear direction and signal (and Obama and Pelosi aren’t stupid), they have to realize that they either pass the Crown Jewel of the Progressive Movement (National Healthcare in some form) right now or never.
I think Pelosi is going to push as hard as she can to get it passed right now.
-Polaris
237 – Dude, you have been gone for a long time, why show up now? Don’t you have your own blog that no one else reads? Idiot
#237 You are a Dem Mass_mouth and always have been when you posted here.
I seem to recall that Kos himself endorsed DeDe and was very upset with Owens. Wonder why?
-Polaris
Mass Mouth why don’t you graduate from grade school (I know it will be a challenge, but hang in there) and then come back when you can write a coherent sentence.
#223 – It doesn’t really matter we all know this bill will eventually turn it into a fully government run system.
#238
I meant Medicare. Sorry, I am getting everything wrong this morning. My point is that a judge found that both Medi and SS are taxes and are constitutional per 16th amend.
What’s wrong with Ron Paul???
I LIKE’M
I noticed that Pelosi intends to swear in our two newly elected members,
CA will not officially certified Grammandi until 12-13-2009 and the counties do not have to official canvass reports done until 11-13-2009.
I suspect NY is the same. Military ballots do not have even have to be in by 11-12-2009.
Are we going to get healthcare passed by illegimate congressmen.
#238 The 13th amendment abolishes forced servitude. It says nothing about taxation.
-Polaris
I know the 13th and 14th amendment came out of the civil war. I just got the wrong number.
#248 Since when has Pelosi cared about the rules?
-Polaris
“Woodstock Democrats”
I like it!
237 What party are you talking about? Civil Rights was good, but now has morphed into a Reverse Racism favored by the government. As for freedom, what do the Dems possibly offer? Abolition?! Last i checked we dealt with that permanently about 150 years ago. Conservation, well the times are a changing. Before you buy a Prius, find out what a nickle mine looks like.
Seems to me you should change your name to Rip Van Winkle, you haven’t been out in a while have you?
235- Too bad you tuned out in the first 5 minutes.
252 – ok maybe you didn’t tune out.. lol
better audio on cspan3 btw http://www.cspan.org/Watch/C-SPAN3_wm.aspx
Except that Bachmann is a loon. However, people like her, Ron Paul followers have passion. Something that Frum and others like him totally lack.
Why bring up Afghanistan? FOCUS PEOPLE. For now we need to defeat HC.
Jon Voight didn’t exactly pull any punches, lol.
No more a loon than you.
what was the crowd just chanting?
. Who would actually call the convention and select the delegates?
Congress (the source of the problem) would.
Thus the libs WOULD get to rewrite the constitution to suit them AND I am sure they could get the courts to “interpret” the 3/4ths clause to be 3/4ths the delegates.~~~POLARIS
A)Either the states(2/3) or the congress would call it.
B) Ratified by 3/4 of the several states.
Article Five of the United States Constitution describes the process whereby the Constitution may be altered. Such amendments may be proposed by the United States Congress or by a national convention assembled at the request of the legislatures of at least two-thirds of the several states. To become valid, amendments must then be {{ratified by either the legislatures of or ratifying conventions}} held in three-fourths of the several states,
I don’t go around suggesting the Democrats spread flu epidemics. I don’t go around talking about blood convenants and slitting our wrists. She is a loon.
REGARDING THE GOP VICTORY IN NJ:
Did any of the rest of you get a visual image of a big Hidenburg type dirgible (with “Hope and Change” printed on its side) crashing and burning and the media news reporters crying out to the viewers “Oh, the humanity!”???
That was a picture that flashed in my head.
258 How do you suggest the 30 ppl here FOCUS to defeat healthcare? Relax Chek, right now we have pretty much done all we can short of nonstop calling reps.
Then again you could always go the Buddhist monk route, however I don’t recommend it, plus the Dems would only see that as one less GOP vote.
Well your boy Levin doesn’t seem to think so.
CBO nukes the House and Senate HC. http://www.redstate.com/dan_perrin/2009/11/05/cbos-10-year-spending-score-for-the-dem-house-bill-18-trillion/#comments
Yikes! And to think those red state Dems weren’t nervous enough already. This figures are going to scare the crap out of them and the public.
#265
I was talking about the rally on Capitol Hill.
Levin is not mincing words. WAY TO GO LEVIN!!!
BTW chek, people will suffer from HC, but young soldiers are in more peril then the need to be right now because Obama cannot make up his mind. There is blood on his hands and frankly he doesn’t care.
If he wants to be a coward and run away he should do it now, and be a man and take the responsibility for it. In leadership, indecision is a decision, and Obama us getting our boys killed over it.
Wait Levin’s off topic but it’s ok now? lol
“I think the state lines deregulation would have a lot more impact than you think. Prices (and premiums) go down when industries get deregulated.”
I agree it probably would. But national regulation would not be sufficient. It would have to be state-by-state deregulation, or simply not apply to all states. I don’t think conservatives have really thought through what this would mean. There would have to be national health care standards. Right now there are 50 different standards for minimum coverage and different definitions of all kinds of things. Buying my plan would be pointless in New Jersey because it doesn’t meet their minimum coverage requirements there. It wouldn’t make much sense in New Hampshire because they have a stricter definition of “pre-existing condition.” Would it mean that I can buy Massachusetts’ government plan? Or would it mean that Massachusetts would have to scrap it’s government plan? Or would it just be exempted from the state lines provision? There’s state soveriegnty issues here.
funny lines.
268, we may be on different levels right now. I am frustrated with HC, but equality frustrated with Afghanistan. Those boys over there deserve the best, and thank GOD the citizens treat them better than the Vietnam Vets.
I am a fiscal conservative, but I do not have a problem with tons of money going to the Military for technological advantages to protect our troops and for the best equipment they can have. They volunteer their life for us, the least we can do is see they are well protected.
Boehner needs to quit the tanning salon.
another reason we need Rubio
http://reason.com/blog/2009/11/04/the-public-option-is-displacin
SOrry foreign policy and the history of “under God” is completely off topic.
Didn’t Boehner vote for the bailouts?
Murtha called his own constituents ignorant red necks in 2008 and they still voted for him. Why does anyone think that will change in 2010? My only conclusion after the last election was that he was absolutley correct in his assessment of his district.
Is it the Preamble or the Declaration of Indie?
Murtha will not be defeated. Rangel will not lose his chairmanship.
#274 – lol, maybe. Could be trying to avoid that older-white guy look.
Every time ive ever seen Bachman on she sounds spot on
One nation under god baby, get over it.
#280
I don’t think being the older-orange guy is an improvement.
Cantor is an opportunist and short.
“What’s wrong with Ron Paul???
I LIKE’M”
I rest my case.
I wonder how many people are there? It would be nice to know.
You should try sniping less, try it for a day.
#285 – Read my mind.
Yes, we can. Yes, we can.
The takeaways from the House Bill via Redstate.
•The total cost to the taxpayer would be 61 billion (as Hot Air notes, this is opposed to the 1.2 trillion of taxpayer money that the Democrats want to spend).
•The plan will essentially keep the total percentage of insured individuals at around the current percentage of 83% (The Democrat’s main selling point on their version is that it will insure 96% of the population – including illegal immigrants).
•Premium rates would decrease across the board.
•The plan assumes tort reform, no government-option health care, and the ability to buy insurance across state lines
http://www.redstate.com/moe_lane/2009/11/05/cbo-scores-the-gop-health-plan/
Guys, there isn’t a snowball’s chance in you know what this passes. You know, I think it looks like Pelosi is going for broke. If the bill passes, their lib base is happy and the red state Dems get massacred at the least. If it doesn’t, Pelosi will blame the GOP and big insurance companies. I think the Dems realize just how much this is hurting them nationally and are wanting to cut their losses if the bill fails.
“Pelosi would hike taxes by 1.1 trillion. Reid by 1.0 trillion.”
I love attractive choices.
#262 I know that DQ. The question is would the federal courts remember that.
What you quoted could be (mis)interpretetated to mean that if 3/4ths of the delegates approved the new constitution, then the legislaters of the states did too since they called the convention.
It’s not what article V says I know, but in the 20th century there have been greater and more egregious misreadings of the constitution than that.
-Polaris
#286 trying paying attention when they pan around. My guess maybe 2 maybe 3k, they pushed back a hundred yards in the front, and then maybe 20 deep on the sides. Not bad for the gop on Thursday at noon with little notice.
Not to worry though I’m sure it’ll be reported as “tens of people”. lol
Oh here we go. Perkins pontificating about abortion. Why are men the most vocal about this issue? Why do they care so much? I don’t see women going on and on about vasectomies.
Why are Tennessians called “volunteers”?
What you quoted could be (mis)interpretetated to mean that if 3/4ths of the delegates approved the new constitution, then the legislaters of the states did too since they called the convention.~~POLARIS
Anything can happen with SCOTUS. Any major earth shaking change would still require that 3/4 agreement to pass.That in itself is a good check and balance.There are enough red states to stop any leftist re write.
Point is moot, because it will never happen,unlees we have another civil war.
#289 Hmm, not exactly “deficit neutral” is it?
-Polaris
#294 Chek, HUH???
Just,
If you are out there, I have been digging into the results of the judiicial elections as related to the 4 counties that surround Philly.
Let me say this – wow! I know it was an off, off election year but the results are stunning. All these counties went for Obama by a substantial margin. Delware County, in particular, is a shock to me since their trend blue started in the mid-90’s and Obama cleaned house in that county. I would have bet anything that Melvin would have received less than 50% in Delco, no matter what election cycle we are in.
I would expect more D’s to turn out in 10 but not nearly the amounts that turned out for his Lordship. CD 7 is setting up perfectly for Meehan. Trust me on Murtha. That is all I can say.
Why is Virginia Foxx so hot! lol /sarc
#296 Maybe, but I think it’s a mistake to even permit the possibility (i.e. constitutional convention).
-Polaris
Polaris, it certainly isn’t. The arrogance is astounding but not surprising.
Great steaming piles of bravo sierra. Now we have vasectomies equaling abortions.
I love the way Christie is being turned into a conservative champion. Not too long ago many in the right wing blogosphere were calling him a RINO. lol! Everybody loves a winner, I guess.
299 – Everyone hope you are correct of course, I’ll just believe it when I see it.
Constitutional convention: BAD IDEA!!! Next issue.
#295 Chek
Tennesseans started to be called “volunteers” in 1836 when Davy Crockett and 32 Tennessee volunteers showed up in San Antonio, Texas to help defend the Alamo prior to the 13 day battle.
MD,
If the GOP continues to make gains with the Suburban vote, then it seems to me that Penn may actually be back in play in 2012. Yes, I know, it’s early, but IIRC it’s the flight of the suburban voter to the Dems (esp near Philly) that’s been killing the GOP in Penn.
-Polaris
304 – He is a cino, said it before election night, said it election night and said it yesterday.
If the GOP continues to make gains with the Suburban vote, then it seems to me that Penn may actually be back in play in 2012.
Let’s see if TB and Eph make fun of Polaris for stating that winning back the suburbs is key to a GOP comeback as the did to me for months.
#304 Did you expect anything different?
I will also say one more thing: If Christie really can reduce the taxation in NJ and improve the economy (which is what he was elected to do after all), I expect he’ll be very popular in NJ whether or not he’s an open conservative or not.
-Polaris
There are more red states than blue states.
Such a convention could redress some errors.
#307
Thanks.
Abortion IS NOT the biggest problem with that bill.
#312
Remember Bush was a “conservative” and came from a red state. He still managed to increase the size of the federal government.
#310 Chek, don’t overthink my statement. I don’t think that anyone disagrees that the GOP needs to win back the suburban vote. That was proably the most significant nationwide shift that occured on Tuesday and the results are self-evident.
Where we disagree is on how to do this while keeping the core of the party intact.
-Polaris
#313 Chek
You’re welcome. Now that you’re a Texan you have to bone up on the Republic’s history.
haha – 535 million per page in new federal spending.
Does chekote see the irony if this thing is defeated because of the abortion issue??? It would mean that abortion does in fact carry weight politically.
#314 True! The Bill is fecal-matter from beginning to end, but if I can use abortion to kill this bill I will…my own personal opinions on abortion notwithstanding.
-Polaris
Where we disagree is on how to do this while keeping the core of the party intact.
Just because I am not a fan of Palin, it doesn’t mean I am a Democrat-lite. You really need to get over your Palin crush.
#320 – Doesn’t matter what you think of abortion, gotta use everything in the arsenal to kill this bill.
Does chekote see the irony if this thing is defeated because of the abortion issue???
It will not defeat the bill. They will just pretend to take it out. What will defeat the bill is the seniors (i.e. Medicare cuts). They showed up in droves on Tuesday.
Remember Bush was a “conservative” and came from a red state. He still managed to increase the size of the federal government.
Comment by Chekote —
Each state delegation would only have one vote.Not likely they would all have mavericks like bush.
You really need to get over your hatred for pro-life women.
Per RAS poll of public opinion on probability of GOP takeover of Congress in 2010: 49-37 say GOP takeover.
http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/general_politics/november_2009/49_see_gop_takeover_of_congress_next_year_as_possible
I have no problem with Blackburn. I do have problems with Bachmann and some of her loonie statements. Palin and her ignorance of the issues.
Tuesday’s Suburban Vote Swing
Karl Rove
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704013004574515652271599392.html
Tuesday’s results were the first sign that voters are revolting against runaway spending and government expansion. But Democrat likely ain’t seen nothin’ yet if they try to ram through health-care reform. There is nothing in the House bill that would do anything to reverse the voter trend we saw this week.
Marv, Those people will have to show up to make it happen though, easy to tell RAS that over the phone.
#328
How ironic coming from Karl Rove. The man who pushed Medicate Part D when no provisions to pay for it and in an effort to buy senior’s votes. I wish people would go after RINO Rove as much as they go after RINO Frum, Graham, McCain. Rove was the architect of the GOP downfall. Yet he seems to get away with it.
327- Yeah their ignorance and loony statements are really hurting us on the HC issue huh?
Love Hensarling. He is shorter than Cantor but a great guy!!!
#329 KnightHawk
I think that the energy of Republicans in 2010 will be greater than the energy shown on Tuesday.
We will swim across a pond of cattle urine and walk across a mile of molten lava to vote.
#331
If the bill passes, are you going to give “credit” to Bachmann and Palin? Or do they only get credit for good outcomes?
Folks claiming to be real Texans would remember the Alamo.
How about Goliad??
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goliad_Campaign
Well those who are too busy for my link. Bowie, Crockett and were others were not to be left alone in the Alamo to meet their fate. Houston tried to arrange a relief force. General Fannin was to be put in charge of this effort. I think we can agree that General Fannin, unlike George washington, was a poor general.
It will make you cry to know the story of Goliad. Unlike at the Alamo where 180 men fought to the bitter end. At Goliad the Texans surrendered. I guess John Wayne did not have time to make that movie. Yup the Texans surrendered. Santa Ana ordered that the 342 Texans who raised the white flag to be executed. Santa Ana had them shot to death on Palm Sunday in 1835. The Texans were led out to the woods and shot like dogs.
remember the Alamo but do not forget Goliad.
CONFESSION:
I would love to see a bunch of young people who supported Obama because he was cool go to jail for not buying health insurance per Obamacare.
#321 Chek, why do you think that everyone that says anything positive about Palin has a “Palin crush”? I have disagreed with you substantially on topics that have nothing to do with Palin (although you always want to drag her in such discussion). Basically you want the GOP to appeal to the suburban voter by telling the so-cons to take a hike. That won’t fly.
I am no so-con by any stretch of the imagination, but I recognize that the energy, footsoldiers, etc for the GOP does come from it’s conservative and even so-con base. Given that reality, I’d like the GOP to win by emphasizing libetarian points that moderates can agree with while giving the so-cons enough backin to at least challenge federal mandates that they disagree with.
In short, Chek, you need to learn to COMPROMISE and part of that is accepting that so-cons are an essential pillar of the GOP and the GOP does nowhere without them…and thus pillorying them is counterproductive at best.
Now, OTOH, the so-cons have to realize that some of their positions ARE polarizing and ARE poison to some voting groups, and they need to compromise too accordingly. I think after the Schiavo and Immigration disasters of 2005 that led to the disasters of 2006 and 2008, that the so-cons “get it” and the arrogance I saw in that wing after 2004 is largely gone…or I hope it is. The GOP is still being damaged by (IMHO) the so-con overreach in 2005.
-Polaris
I never claim to be a Texan. Never will be.
why do you think that everyone that says anything positive about Palin has a “Palin crush”?
Not everybody. Just you and NC at BJG.
Polaris,
Sadly, I differ with you on 12. While Obama most likely won’t win by 10, my guess is that he will probably win by 4 to 6. The turnout from Philly, Pitt, Allentown, Chester pretty much guarantees that.
PA has not gone blue for a POTUS since 88.
I am officialy tired of:
Yes, we can.
No, we can’t.
Yes, we will.
And any other related spin off phrase.
I meant BC at BJG.
“If the bill passes, are you going to give “credit” to Bachmann and Palin?”
—
Nope if it passes I will give credit to Mrs.Piggy for twisting arms and party discipline.
SoCons are welcomed in the “leave us alone” coalition of limited government as long as they don’t push for big government to impose their morality on everybody.
#333
Being a pond, do you mind if I just walk around the edge?
Has Eph shown up today?
#339 – You forgot Tommy, oh wait he’s just paid staff I forgot for a second.
I never claim to be a Texan. Never will be.
Comment by Chekote
We don’t want you to be.
Chek,
I have a Palin crush? Since when? I have defended her from you but athat’s because I think she’s gotten a raw deal. I expected that from the Dems, but not from people like you.
Know the difference between being fair and being in love.
-Polaris
Immigration disasters of 2005 that led to the disasters of 2006 and 2008 POLARIS
Does this mean we should support amnesty??
#340 You may be right MD. I was only speculating and 12 is a long ways away.
-Polaris
#337 – Polaris stop trying it just goes in one ear of her’s and out the other.
I’m watching the rally at the Capitol steps on CSPAN and I’ve noticed that Republican women are generally more attractive than Democrat women. Has anyone else noticed that?
337 – Polaris stop trying it just goes in one ear of her’s and out the other.
Comment by KnightHawk —
I believe it’s another orifice that it goes out of.
#350 – Pretty sure he meant W’s stupid attempt at it.
My apologies polaris.
#350 Not at all DQ. However, you can support immigration reform as a national security issue.
Instead Torencelli and others made it seem like a “Keep those dirty Mexicans out of our country. We’ve got too many of those dirty Mexicans here already”
Basically the GOP came out as a small minded group of bigots when it came to Immigration and it turned a lot of Indies off…including this one.
-Polaris
Marv,
Just another advantage to conservatism.
I found over and over again that folks who deplore the efforts of social conservatives to impose their views of them. These folks are the ones who are most eager to impose their own views on everyone else.
No they do not want to just practice what they preach. They want you to change what you believe and do by accepting what they believe.
350 – Does this mean we should support amnesty??
We are going to have to find a way to integrate them, since we will never find enough buses to send them home and they will keep coming back because we don’t want our own kids cleaning toilets and butchering hogs.
The latinos especially are socially conservative and work hard, a natural GOP constituency. We cannot continue to give them the perception that we are demonizing them because of their race.
Basically the GOP came out as a small minded group of bigots when it came to Immigration
Comment by Polaris
Came out??
It would be portrayed by the pro amnesty crowd that way, but it was about ILLEGAL immigration. That race card won’t fly anymore.
I think she’s gotten a raw deal.
How? All I have said is that she is polarizing. Hillary is polarizing. So was Newt. At least they were back in the 90s. Did they get a raw deal when people said that about them? I said she was not up to speed as far a national issues during the campaign. That’s a fact not a raw deal.
DQ/IP
YOu are not a Texan. You are an Ohio transplant.
#355 Also GWB’s attempt at immigration reform split his own party and was presented poorly which made the issue even worse.
-Polaris
These folks are the ones who are most eager to impose their own views on everyone else.
How? By insisting that biology is taught in biology classes. That religion be taught in religion classes?
rdelbov – if the so-cons would simply practice what the great Tennesseean via North Carolina, Charlie Daniels preaches we would all get along fine:
Preacher man talkin’ on the TV,
He’s a-puttin’ down the rock ‘n’ roll.
He wants me to send a donation,’Cos he’s worried about my soul.
He said: “Jesus walked on the water,”And I know that is true,
But sometimes I think that preacher man,
Would like to do a little walkin’, too.
But I ain’t askin’ nobody for nothin’,
If I can’t get it on my own.
You don’t like the way I’m livin’,
You just leave this long-haired country boy alone.
#364 – There was no way to present either POS attempt in a positive way.
We are going to have to find a way to integrate them,
We can’t without turning this country into a third world chithole (Not my opinion but the opinion of some at BJG)
#361 please read what Knova said in #360 and consider that my response as well. In politics appearence is often more important than fact and during 2005 in particular, the GOP gave the APPEARENCE of being a small minded racist/nativist party that wanted to open concentration camps for all hispanics.
I am exaggerating here, but not by very much.
Is it any wonder then why the Hispanic vote when so solidly against the GOP in 2008 then?
-Polaris
The latinos especially are socially conservative and work hard, a natural GOP constituency. We cannot continue to give them the perception that we are demonizing them because of their race.
Comment by knova
Their “perception”, is just a subtle way of playing the race card against us. Maintaining the rule of law isn’t “demonizing”
anyone. Dry up their jobs, and they will self deport, as some of them have during this recession. It is a myth that they are a “natural GOP constituency”, as the voting patterns show an overwhelming and consistant demokrat preference.
If Amnesty passes that will be the end of the two party system.
The mistake the GOP made on illegal immigration was in linking securing the borders with addressing the status of the illegals in this country. They should have first pushed for sealing the borders based on securities concerns. After 9/11, this should have been easy to do. After the borders were sealed, then address what to do with the illegals in this country.
Well the whole immigration debate has been going on for a long time
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=boO4RowROiw
#368 If the GOP doesn’t learn to deal with the hispanics that are alraedy here illegally, then the demographics really do look grim…because those illegals will have children and those children will vote…..straight party Dem…unless concessions are made.
I’m all for border control as a natioanl security issue, but it’s been too easy to paint immigration in a nativist/racist light.
Instead of denying the problem, the GOP needs to fix it.
-Polaris
I don’t see Latinos as a natual GOP constituency until after a few generations move up the economic ladder.
#370 – Well put.
YOu are not a Texan. You are an Ohio transplant.
Comment by Chekote
Born in taxas,traveled elsewhere.
#373
Focusing on getting an handle over who is coming is and who is going out of the country in the name of security cannot be painted as a race issue. Especially, if it was done immediately after 9/11.
#375
Racist.
#376
You are changing your story. You are from Ohio. Give it up.
Republicans have always been better looking than Dems. Just a second ago I was passing in front of an abandoned warehouse and noticed my refelction in the window. I almost had to do a double-take. And I’m 96 years old.
#371 I agree with you entirely on that point, Chek. Suprised?
To wit: Secure the border first.
Wait for things to die down.
Then deal with the illegals that are here (and dealing with them need not mean automatic deportation either).
-Polaris
Sealing the borders is not bigoted or racist. If so I proudly where such label.
I am for sensible, legal immigration. I am NOT for providing amnestly to those who did things the wrong way. That only serves to encourage illegal behavior. That was one of Reagan’s few mistakes as President. Providing amnesty to 1 million illegals only served to eventually make the problem at least 20 times worse.
#368 If the GOP doesn’t learn to deal with the hispanics that are alraedy here illegally, then the demographics really do look grim…because those illegals will have children and those children will vote…..straight party Dem…unless concessions are made. polaris
THEY are the ones breaking our laws, why must we make the concessions?
The mistake was in adopting a “comprehensive approach”. The people who don’t want to stop illegal immigration knew damn well that a “comprehensive approach” was going to stop ANY attempt to secure the border.
#374 I don’t either, but they aren’t an automatic Dem constituency either unless the GOP forces them to become one. One thing GWB proved beyond a shadow of a doubt was that the Hispanic vote is there to be had.
That means the GOP should act to insure that it get’s it’s share of that vote (even it’s a Dem leaning group) rather than making it pure poison and turning hispanics into another AA type voting bloc.
-Polaris
#380 – LOL
#381 – Dry up the jobs there after via enforcing employment laws. Amnesty is BS, go home and apply to come back via proper process.
Dry up the janatorial, butchering and construction jobs? You really think Americans are going to do these?
Sometimes IP/DQ I see you as the Walt Kowalski character in Gran Torino only without the heroism or the courage. Just a cranky old loner who no one except those of us who don’t have to see you personally will tolerate.
Perhaps for some and (I would say not that many) this is about Legal vs. Illegal. To most it is about “For English press #1″ on the customer servic line. Since you never put forth solutions to the problem other than drying up jobs, which contribute to our economy, I can only assume that the legal/illegal aspect is merely a figleaf to cover your own biases.
I am for immigration reform AFTER the government demonstrates that it has control over the borders. Otherwise, any reform will serve as an incentive for more illegal immigration.
Jesus NEVER said a darn thing about abortion or homosexuality.
#371 I agree with you entirely on that point, Chek. Suprised?
No. You and I agree on many issues.
388 – Yes. What you think the nation is going to suddenly fall apart If secure the borders and only allowing legal immigration?
THEY are the ones breaking our laws, why must we make the concessions?
Because if we don’t the GOP will lose the demographic battle and really be a rump party in twenty years.
It’s nice to be principled but make sure that your morals don’t prevent you from doing the right thing.
Chek is right on this one. The mistake was trying to solve immigration as a comprehensive issue (and Mexico is NOT our friend on this).
First seal the border as a single issue (or at least control it). When presented alone as a national security issue, I don’t see how reasonable people could disagree. Mexico will complain but they can take a flying leap IMHO.
THEN deal with the issue within our borders. Reasonable people can reasonably disagree as to how, but at least this does’t appear to be ipso-facto “racist”.
-Polaris
Then deal with the illegals that are here (and dealing with them need not mean automatic deportation either).
-Polaris
Nor should it mean automatic amnesty either. Why should we reward this kind of behavior.
It isn’t at all “nativist” to protect this country from 20 million uneducated, unskilled, illegals, who have no respect whatever for our culture or laws.They have no desire to assimilate, as they are waving their mexican flags and celebrating cinco de mayo etc. They are only here for their own economic self interest.
Common sense immifgration reform does involve:
Protecting our borders
making English the official language of the US since that is the key to increasing economic viability
have a easier means for people to come here legally
make those here illegaly re-apply to get back
They are only here for their own economic self interest.
You can say that for just about any set of immigrants that settled this country, albeit there were early ones that came here to avoid relgious persecution.
So in 20 years we will have 100 million illegals here because they know that we have no respect for our own laws.
I really don’t understand the logic behind rewarding illegal behavior. I understand the politics but that should never trump the basic right versus wrong equation.
You are changing your story. You are from Ohio. Give it up.
Comment by Chekote
You’re dreaming
“have a easier means for people to come here legally
make those here illegaly re-apply to get back”
—
Knova those two can be put on the table after the first two in your list are accomplished.
All I know is, we can’t continue to lose 65-70% of the Hispanic vote and expect to win in the future.
Urkel now pimping AARP endorsement at WH briefing.
Good point, Polaris. Immigration needs to be dealt with seriously by the government. Unfortunately for all his gungo ho attitude toward terrorism, GWB was a shill for letting illegals come into the country unchecked. If a person legitimately wants to come to the US, then he needs to approach the US consulate in his home country and petition for entry here. It’s as simple as that. We don’t get many skilled workers from other countries here because they ABIDE by our immigration laws, yet we get many unskilled workers because they FLOUT our laws. It’s wrong, and someone needs to grow the cajones in Washington to deal with the issue in a reasonable way.
I never said that such reform should mean automatic amenesty. Many of Knova’s ideas are good ones as well as a working-visa idea might be appropriate too.
Like I said, reasonable peoeple can reasonably disagree about the details, but the border DOES need to be controlled a lot better than it is. Nothing racist about that! That is a national security issue.
-Polaris
Now, if we are talking about reforming the legal immigraton laws then that is another story altogether. It does take too long to get here legally. I am for that under certain circumstances:
1. You must speak passable English
2. No welfare – period.
3. You cannot vote for 10 years. We need to be certain that your entry will not be exploited for political purposes.
4. For those between the ages 0 and 30 when immigrating you must promise to serve 2 years in the military before reaching 35. That way,you have skin in the game.
399 – I put them in the order that they should be done. You will notice that deportation is not a part of it though.
Tell me though KH, if you have kids, do you want them going to college or doing the crappy jobs that the immigrants have always done since this country was established.
Dry up the janatorial, butchering and construction jobs? You really think Americans are going to do these?
Sometimes IP/DQ I see you as the Walt Kowalski character in Gran Torino only without the heroism or the courage.
I can only assume that the legal/illegal aspect is merely a figleaf to cover your own biases.
Comment by knova
Because Americans were doing those jobs before the influx of illegals.
You have no special insight to heroism or courage, just an insipid opinion.
Spare me the phony racecard crap, it won’t fly anymore.
#397 Never let morality get in the way of doing the right thing.
-Polaris
and Mexico is NOT our friend on this).
Why would Mexico endorse any effort that would take away their ability to export their poverty problem to the US?
You’re right, Brandon. The GOP needs to target latinos by aggressively trying to convince latinos how GOP policies will benefit them and cause them to move up the ladder in society. The government grabbag of goodies mentality of the Dems has been a disaster for blacks and will be no better for latinos. The only way I can see to do this is to campaign heavily in latino areas. Bob McDonnell did so in Virginia and won a significant chunk of their vote. Christie probably upticked the normal GOP percent among latinos in New Jersey. The latinos are too big and important a voting group to write off, but the GOP needs to aggressivle work for those votes.
All I know is, we can’t continue to lose 65-70% of the Hispanic vote and expect to win in the future.
Comment by Brandon
We never had them to begin with, that’s why amnesty must be stopped.
Why should we reward this kind of behavior.
For the same reason you have plea bargaining. The system would get overwhelmed if you try to apply the letter of the law.
The US is a hell of a lot bigger and a hell of a lot more powerful than Mexico. It’s time one of our leaders has the cajones to step up to the bureaucrats in Mexico City and tell them enough is enough.
DQ -
you hate fags
you hate illegals
you hate libs
you hate anyone who is not like you.
You must hate everyone. You search your own soul, you know why you are the way you are. And so does everyone else who reads your bigoted rantings.
Polaris, I despise INTRADE also. Just letting you know that Soros backed Traders there do not see it passing.
#410. Actually Bush got 44% in 2004. It’s since then, that we have been getting killed.
Brandon
Have you noticed that many who used to call Christie a RINO are not heralding him as a champion of conservatism.
“Tell me though KH, if you have kids, do you want them going to college or doing the crappy jobs that the immigrants have always done since this country was established.”
—
What are you even talking about? How are my kids choices all of a sudden to goto college or to do a crappy job instead?
I want my kids doing a crappy job WHILE they are attending college.
413- continued,
But you can quote the Bible. I am sure that God is so proud of you and has a special place just waiting. Hypocrite.
“Have you noticed that many who used to call Christie a RINO are not heralding him as a champion of conservatism.”
—
You just said the reverse earlier in this thread, make up your mind.
That is true, Knova. When Steele became GOP Chairman, DQ was bemoaning that because it would cause the death of the GOP Southern strategy by turning off white voters. That statement by itself indicates an underlying racial bias in his thinking.
I want my kids doing a crappy job WHILE they are attending college.
And after that.
You must hate everyone. You search your own soul, you know why you are the way you are. And so does everyone else who reads your bigoted rantings.
Comment by knova
Bigoted rantings===Daring to disagree with the “libertarian” mind set.
What a joke.
The sagging economy gives the GOP its best chance of picking up latino votes. The party would do best to exploit the situation to its best advantage.
#408 Of course they won’t. Securing our border hurts Mexico and they know it. However, IMHO the US (and esp GWB) was far too worried about displeasing Mexico than he should hav been.
-Polaris
422- Your own writing speaks for itself. And you have probably never even gotten a whiff of the left front seat of an airplane. Just another poser.
For the ideologically pure like the carful of clowns at BJG, people like Christie who dare disagree with them on any issue will always be regarded as RINOs. Christie is no exception, and the second McDonnell takes a position not absolutely in line with them, he’ll be called a RINO too.
That is true, Knova. When Steele became GOP Chairman, DQ was bemoaning that because it would cause the death of the GOP Southern strategy by turning off white voters. That statement by itself indicates an underlying racial bias in his thinking.
Comment by Wes
A bald faced lie. I defy you to prove that B.S.
#409. Obama got 78% of Hispanics in NJ, Corzine got 65%.
Great point in 424, Polaris.
#415 The fact that GWB did get 44% of the Hispanic vote though tells you that the vote is there to be had. Of course GWB had some advantages such as being fluent in spanish (ok only sort of but then again he wasn’t that fluent in english either
)
-Polaris
#413
He also hates Italians.
All right, you lying bastard. Let me run back through the posts at polipundit, and I’ll prove it’s YOU who are lying, you arrogant sonofabitch.
amnesty doesn’t equal immigration reform, never has.
Secure the borders first and foremost.
Second, enforce or amend employment laws requiring verification of SSN#’s and identification on a montly or by pay-period basis.
Chekote it is getting old. We know you are Center Left, but do you have to rip the Pro-Lifers all the time.
I agree Abortion is not a winner politically, but I respect life.
I am all for regularizing the status of illegals here. But FIRST, seal the borders. Otherwise, we will have more illegals.
but I respect life.
Who doesn’t? Except for Jeffrey Dahmer and the like.
422- Your own writing speaks for itself. And you have probably never even gotten a whiff of the left front seat of an airplane. Just another poser.
Comment by knova
How would you know one way or the other sonny boy??
413
He also hates Italians.
Comment by Chekote
Everyone hates italians.
Well, dQ, you got lucky, you lying bastard. Apparently when Polipundit updated a few months ago, the comments for previous posts were deleted. Sadly that means I have no proof of what you said–although you and I both know you said it.
Wes, this is why Reagan was the best President of the last 80 years.
He was pragmatic. I agree that we should take that approach, but also respect the views of the Pro-Lifers, just not always politically.
Many still do not realize that Christie and McCain are Pro-Life
All right, you lying bastard. Let me run back through the posts at polipundit, and I’ll prove it’s YOU who are lying, you arrogant sonofabitch.
Comment by Wes
Another broad minded missive from the so called “libertarins” at HHR.
Hey David, Comments are monitored and subject to deletion at this site’s discretion if they contain any of the following: language, personal insults or attacks, off-topic, or anything else I deem worthy of deletion.
D. Q might be wrong but it is free speech. I do not agree with him, but why censor like Obama wants.
How does anyone know how many hispanics voted for whom?
Christie believes in exceptions for rape and life of the mother, Jason. To moonbats like DQ, that automatically makes him a RINO.
How would you know one way
Pilots are required to be calm under pressure and make good judgments. Also to pass their bi-annual medical, they need to prove that they do not have mental or personality disorders.
Your writing would appear to disqualify you on pretty much all counts…sonny boy.
Well, dQ, you got lucky, you lying bastard. Apparently when Polipundit updated a few months ago, the comments for previous posts were deleted. Sadly that means I have no proof of what you said–although you and I both know you said it.
Comment by Wes
Easy to make an accusation when you don’t have to prove it.
You’re delusional.
A combination of exit polling and examination of the raw data where latinos are known to live in large numbers, Bayern.
Pro-life is another phoney politically motivated term. What’s the opposite of pro-life? Pro-death. It was designed to intimidate those of us who don’t believe in government agents rifling through medical records looking for illegal abortions by calling us pro-death. It is a ridiculous approach. And it hasn’t worked in 40 years.
443 – what would be interesting is to see the percentage that voted for GWB in 2000 and 2004 vs the percentage voting for BHO in 2008 after the “amnesty wars.”
Well, it’s only unprovable because all the posts from that day have been deleted, DQ. That’s to YOUR benefit, not mine.
#444
I find the rape, incest exception intellectually dishonest. Why should the child pay for the crimes of the parent with his/her life?
Brandon, how many Hispanics did Reagan get when he won 45 and 49 States?
35% maybe. Whites won the election for Obama and 10 million conservatives not voting at all because of McCain
Knova, the concensus is that GWB got about 35-36% of the latino vote in 2000 and anywhere from 38-44% of their vote in 2004 while McCain dropped to between 31-34% of the vote in 2008.
I don’t see large numbers of Latinos voting Republican for a while. A lot of damage was done during the immigration debate. Plus, Telemundo, Univision are so left leaning it is beyond ridiculous.
And after that – ???
After that I’ll have confidence in their own abilities to sink or swim in the market place.
Good point, Jason. Latinos are the largest voting bloc in the country after white thous–and their numbers are growing. It’s definitely to the GOP’s advantage to lure in as many of them as possible.
448. Chekote, Pro life did not work for Bush in 2000 and 2004?
Do you think the Evangelicals would have been doing GOTV if he were Pro-Choice?
#183 I agree totally that the so-called HC reform in genrenal in and the Individual Mandate in particular are Unconstitutional….
I wish this would be talked about more in the media and by GOP elected types….
#452. You do realize that their portion of the electorate then, is minuscule compared to what it is today, right?
Chekote, using that logic, Reagan woudl have had no chance in 1980. The media were all solidly left-leaning, and Watergate damaged the GOP. Reagan, however, worked hard to bypass the media and present his uplifting message directly to the people. He won solidly. I’d say the GOP needs to do something similar in the latino community. Bypassing Telemundo and Univision may be hard, but it’s not impossible.
Wes, a good start would be Rubio. Too have a Conservative Hispanic in the Elite club of 100 would be huge for The GOP.
Problem is if Rubio beats Crist will a DEM heavy hitter jump in.
Pilots are required to be calm under pressure and make good judgments. Also to pass their bi-annual medical, they need to prove that they do not have mental or personality disorders.
Your writing would appear to disqualify you on pretty much all counts…sonny boy.
Comment by knova
Thank you pseudo freud, phony libertarian.
Dare to trample on the firmly held beliefs of a phony libertarian, and one is a BIGOT.
You two are a hoot.
Guys,
I didn’t mean to inflame the old immigration scab. I just wanted to point out that the country as a whole hasn’t forgotten it and it’s one reason why GOP self-id is at all time lows even though conservative self-ids is at all time highs.
It’s a perception that needs to be fixed. Fix the perception and the GOP will get it’s share of the Hispanic vote especially if it focuses on pragmatic economic issues.
-Polaris
GOTV is highly overated. GW lost the popular vote in 2000. Barely won Florida thanks to the military ballots. In 2004, Bush won on terrorism/security. Besides, I love the way GOP candidates run away from the abortion issue during the general election. Bush talked in code language about “Dred Scott”. Dole said he didn’t read the pro-life platform. Really funny.
455 – Then who does it? And seriously do you see your kids butchering hogs and chickens or being a full time janitor while they are going to school full time? I can tell from my own son’s experience that having a 20 to 30 hour a week job during college a load when they are doing 15 hours of class and twice that with homework.
Working over the summer at a crappy job is a good idea as it makes them appreciate those that actually do it.
Jason, Bush lost the popular vote in 2000–and would ahve lost altogether but for Nader’s appearance on the ballot–and stumbled across the finish line against an uncharismatic, unlikable opponent in 2004. I’d hardly call that a ringing endorsement of his views on abortion.
#463
Time heals all wounds. I would leave the immigration debate alone for now. Focus on improving the economy.
Brandon not miniscule. I went to College in the West at that time, amny Hispanics back then.
If you broke down the legal Hispanic voters of 1984 and 2008 what would be the difference?
It is the illegals that kill the GOP like in NV
Wes, Quix and Knova,
Can we call a momentary truce to the hostilities? You guys agree on most things economically. Calling people names serves no purpose. There is someone else on this board who has that role.
#466
Let’s not forget the butterfly ballot that cause old people in West Palm Beach vote for Buchanan.
There are several posters doing their best impression of a braying jackass this PM. My strong suggestion is to act your age not your shoe size.
Wes, wrong. Bush lost the popular vote in 2000 because 4 million evangelicals stayed home after the Bush DUI.
Straight from Karl Rove’s mouth
There is someone else on this board who has that role.
Yeah, we know. And you don’t read my posts.
Thank you pseudo freud, phony libertarian.
Dare to trample on the firmly held beliefs of a phony libertarian, and one is a BIGOT.
You two are a hoot.
You are going to have to better than that.
You ever notice that I can play nice with Tim V., or MD, or Rdelbov, and even eph? No, you are an especially noxious personality and most people here are seeing it in living color.
You are what you are…a phoney and a poser.
Now go run to Wissing with that…sonny boy.
The GOP needs to reach out to latinos by pointing out how their governmental policies will uplift not only latinos but all Americans. The current state of the economy provides them with the best chance they will have of doing that.
Chekote your support of Kay Bailey says Everything.
Wes, wrong. Bush lost the popular vote in 2000 because 4 million evangelicals stayed home after the Bush DUI.
Why would evangelicals stay home over several decade old DUI? They are too fickle to rely upon. Besides, it won’t be long before Evangelicals claim the recent victories in NJ and VA even though it was the suburban vote that provided the winning margins.
Jason, Rove also said passing the prescription drug benefit and advocating “comprehensive” immigration reform would build a lasting GOP majority in the country. He also predicted Hoffman would win when returns came in from NY-23 on Election Night. Given all that, I tend to discount what Rove says.
#463 – that scab came flying right off, intended or not.
Do you know I have NEVER been banned from this site? And Tim V thinks I have anger issues. He should read this thread. Group counseling is in order.
#467 To a large extent I agree, but not in toto. I agree that if the GOP focuses on pocketbook issues, govt control, etc that it’s a winnin combination in the short run (and has been a winner this year) and as such the GOP will get it’s share of the hispanic vote (and did in both NJ and VA).
However, some wounds don’t heal with time and the Dems are always (like clockwork) claim that the GOP is a white-racist party (true or not) which further aggravates a bad impression that was left.
I think ultimately it will have to be dealt with one way or the other.
-Polaris
#476
I don’t support her and I told her that personally. Get your facts straight.
#465 Life is hard work.
Remember, though, Chekote, nothing motivates suburban voters like the desire to send ever-higher portions of their paychecks to the government. So says Tommy_boy anyway.
And Tim V thinks I have anger issues.
And so does your family based on the e-mails you shared a month or so ago.
475. Wes, agreed. I just wish the RNC would see that Rubio would the best thing to happen for appearance of the future.
Crist is a good guy but pisses me off , just like Kay Bailey.
Egomanics who just have to fight their allies instead of the real enemy.
Crist leaves a open GOV seat in a state that will get new House seats in 2011, Kay leaves open a Senate Seat that the Mayor of Houston might take.
From 404 – what is wrong with this solution?
Now, if we are talking about reforming the legal immigraton laws then that is another story altogether. It does take too long to get here legally. I am for that under certain circumstances:
1. You must speak passable English
2. No welfare – period.
3. You cannot vote for 10 years. We need to be certain that your entry will not be exploited for political purposes.
4. For those between the ages 0 and 30 when immigrating you must promise to serve 2 years in the military before reaching 35. That way,you have skin in the game.
Comment by MD — November 5, 2009 @ 2:04 pm
#465 – 10% unemployment and your worried about who is going to do said jobs. Think you both need to stop with that piece of straw.
Predictions on the HCR vote on Sat?
Chekote you were busting on Perry all last week. At least the guy does wear Obama kneepads like Crist.
Wes,
You are already in a battle with Quix, now you are going to pro-actively take a shot at TB?
I am not sold on Rubio. Too young. Crist is very Florida. He has the best shot at getting the indie vote in this swing state. I just don’t think that going hard right is a good idea in swing states.
Howard, no vote.
JT,
I assume you met NOT.
The GOP is nearly guaranteed of winning both, Jason. Their candidates are running ahead of the Dems in both instances. Remember, polls had the 2002 Cornyn-Kirk race close, and Kirk only lost it by a 10-point margin. Barring a GOP implosion, I don’t see the Dems coming close in either race.
I vote with JT – no vote. It is just more BS from Nancy. Remember when she had the votes in August?
Chekote sorry today. I am just irritated with this Right Wing-GOP civil war. Here we are facing a George Orwell future and we fight each other.
Chekote you were busting on Perry all last week.
How? I said he seems to have faded since the spring. He has. Why do some many here have problems with basic facts? We really need to get out of this mode that unless you completely toe the line and have nothing but praise, you must be part of the opposition.
HD,
Congrats on the Yanks. The better team won.
Well, hey, MD, Tommy’s the one who said suburbanites turned away from the GOP in large numbers because they just couldn’t wait to pay higher taxes. Till he backs off that idiotic stance, I’ll take the shot whenever presented the chance.
You ever notice that I can play nice with Tim V., or MD, or Rdelbov, and even eph? No, you are an especially noxious personality and most people here are seeing it in living color.
You are what you are…a phoney and a poser.
Now go run to Wissing with that…sonny boy.
Comment by knova
“noxious personality”===Anyone daring to disagree with the pontifacating prevaricators of the self descibed “libertarians”.
What most people are seeing is a temper tantrum from a crybaby.
Wes,
OK – but he was not even posting and you went after him. Why not wait until he is on the board?
I agree with 498 wholeheartedly, Chek.
Boys, would you all like some wine with your cheese?
TB is the worst strategist. He thought that the BC was a good idea. It just made us look loonie. He thinks that the GOP can win without the suburbs. I could go on but you get the point.
I think Pelosi has leaked Collagen.
There is no way to provide cover for Blue Dogs this time around because of the NJ loss for Corzine. A no vote by the dogs does not help if it passes and raises taxes. The DOW would hit circuit breakers on the Monday opening.
Fair enough, MD. I’ll withhold fire till he starts posting.
Forgive my faulty memory, Chek, but what’s the BC?
BC=BirthCert.
Quixote I respect your free speech rights. But your preaching to the choir mate. Try to enter the debate on Healthcare instead.
Birth Certificate.
Oh. Well, that was one huge fiasco. I’m just glad other things happened that kept it from making the GOP all look like complete loons.
Healtcare reform sucks.
#512
TB actually posted that he thought that McDonnell’s good numbers in VA were due to doubts about Obama thanks to the birthers.
#498
If Perry has faded it hasn’t been by all that much. The last Texas poll that I saw has Perry with a solid 15 point lead over KBH in the primary.
-Polaris
Chekote fair enough, but it goes both ways. Stick to politics and stop busting on Pro-Lifers. Christie and McDonnell are pragmatic but Pro life.
It must be another garbage in and garbage out thread again.
What are the odds that Pelosi actually brings this thing to a vote on Sat? And what would happen if she doesn’t? She has gone out on limb here, hasn’t she? If she pulls this thing from the floor, that means she does not have the votes. Wouldn’t that open the floodgates for more Blue Dogs to bail that haven’t already?
Well, Chek, we’ve all made faulty arguments on here. I’d argue the fact that Virginians started waking up to the full import of Obama’s policies was what buoyed McDonnell and the other Republicans Tuesday.
Ironic. On Tuesday The D.C Sniper will be executed and will meet Allah and his 40 Barbara Streisands. Of course those who support Abortion will be protesting the Scum’s Death outside the Prison.
#516
I couldn’t care less if you are pro-life. What I care about is an attempt to criminalize abortion during the first trimester. I don’t want people’s privacy, medical records violated because half the population believe that a fertilized egg is a person.
I’m pro-choice, Jason, and I’d sign up for the chance to throw the switch if I could.
I don’t know if this was posted earlier or not, but the estimates of this afternoon’s DC tea party crowd was 10,000 people.
http://blog.heritage.org/2009/11/05/10000-rally-against-obamacare/
Polaris I was way out there this Morning on UK Politics. Sorry
Good to know, Jan.
MD, Phillies can hold their heads high.
2 Series appearances in a row is TOUGH.
At least Howard got his poke in.
Beginning of life….. end of life…. it’s all pretty much that same thing.
So when does “a person” become “a person”?
Or more specifically, at what point do the rights protected by the 14th Amendment to teh US Constitution attach to the unborn?
Wes, Cool. I respect both sides of the debate, just do not like Pro-Lifers being blamed for everything politically. Do not think its fair.
Of course those who support Abortion will be protesting the Scum’s Death outside the Prison.
You have asked that I respect your pro-life views. I ask that you drop pro-choice = cheerleader for abortion. I would prefer to see the number of abortions down to zero. That’s not the issue. What’s I don’t want to see is government being used to impose on EVERYONE the view that a fertilized egg is a person.
#26:
I have talked to Senator Reed, many times. To be honest, the thought that he had ever been a member of the Black Panthers would be absolutely silly, to me.
I don’t think that Mary Norwood is a Republican. I do know that she once attended a GOP Convention. She also voted for people as varied as Ross Perot and Al Gore. She is an Independent.
This is gonna be close, because both candidates have some African-American support. But, I hope that Reed wins.
Howard, they need someone behind Lee. Hamels is hurt. The Phillies need to sign Cliff to a extension now ASAP
Or more specifically, at what point do the rights protected by the 14th Amendment to teh US Constitution attach to the unborn?
At the moment of viability.
Chekote I do not like your tone. I saw you berate people at Polipundit also. Chill out
532… ahhhh… I see
and what “moment” would that be?
And doesn’t that “moment” occur a lot earlier in 2009 than it did in 1973?
Tim Typical. Norwood would be so much better for Atlanta in terms of bringing in Business and Jobs
Tim the partisan has to go with the race Baiter Reed.
The 14th Amendment itself explicitly says constitutional rights are limited strictly to those born in the United States or naturalized as its citizens. That would exclude the unborn unfortunately.
Wes, you could teach Chekote how to be pragmatic.
I never knew your stance but I respect It because you did not flaunt it.
Jason T
I find that the SoCon agenda has the tendency to undercut the limited government. I find it very ironic to hear people like Rubio rail against the Dem HC because it puts government in charge of choosing procedures. Because government will be put between the doctor-patient relationship and at the same time push for federal laws mandating ultrasounds before an abortion. Federal laws that would place government smack in the middle of the woman-doctor relationship.
So tourists visiting the US have no rights to Due Process while here?
Chekote I do not like your tone.
Can’t please everyone. That’s who I am. You either love me or hate me. Very few people are indifferent about me. It has always been this way.
Well, Jason, I’m Catholic, so abortion is something I’m naturally not comfortable with. On the other hand, years ago, my Wife was brutally raped and became pregnant by the rape. (The rape was what inspired Her to become a Marine so no one could ever hurt Her like that again.) The violence of what happened to her caused Her to miscarry though. So you can see supporting ability of a woman to end a pregnancy under traumatic circumstances like that is not an esoteric issue for me at all.
So which is it? Viability or when they are born?
I just want to know.
If it is not till birth, then those rights are not attached an hour before birth, correct?
“Who doesn’t? Except for Jeffrey Dahmer and the like.”
Chekote, I like that answer.
And doesn’t that “moment” occur a lot earlier in 2009 than it did in 1973?
Yes. Technology is improving. Also, abortions are occuring a lot earlier due to more advanced medical technology. Look most people that have abortions because of unplanned pregnacies take care of it at the earliest possible moment. Late term abortions are due to complications.
No one will mourn Mohammed. He is the true personification of Evil. His partner in crime Malvo should be strapped down right next to him. It was crazy here when that stuff was happening.
So tourists visiting the US have no rights to Due Process while here?
No. They have a right to a ticket back to their country.
Wes…. I am sorry for what happened to your wife. This is why I think that the abortion issue should be decided by elected legislatures, who can weigh factors like rape when deciding when and under what circumstances abortion is permissable.
546 OK serious discussion of this issue is not wanted atm. I get it.
Have a good day.
#542
I said viability. BTW, Roe vs. Wade allows the state to prohibit abortion at the point of viability.
Bayern, under the 14th Amendment, constitutional rights are limited to those born in the US or naturalized citizens. The 10th Amendment, however, lets states make laws within their own borders that don’t conflict with constitutional strictures; thus, abortions from a second after conception all the way to a second before birth could be allowable in one state while abortions under any corcumstances for the duration of the pregnancy would be disallowed in another.
I think that the abortion issue should be decided by elected legislatures
I have no problem with this.
Thank you, Bayern.
Fair enough Wes. sorry to hear that.
“Egomanics who just have to fight their allies instead of the real enemy.”
Who announced first for the Senate, Crist or Rubio?
I agree about KBH but I don’t see that Florida is anything like Texas. Rubio was a nobody and Crist was the heavyweight. In Texas Perry is already governor, successful. Someone is comparing apples and oranges here.
I don’t like to dwell on what happened, Jason, but when something like that does happen, it can have a profound effect on someone’s outlook on things. Before that, I would have said I didn’t want abortions under any circumstances. Obviously after the incedent, I chnaged my perspective considerably.
Sorry about to hear about your wife, Wes. Now just imagine having to prove that you were raped in order to have an abortion. Or having to prove that you did nothing to cause the miscarriage. I think most pro-lifers have never stopped to think through what they are actually proposing.
“who can weigh factors like rape when deciding when and under what circumstances abortion is permissable.”
Oh I see, we are against Obama’s death panels but let’s establish a legislative “who can have abortions panel”….that will be a real winner idea.
#535:
Why would she be better? How do you know this?
And, damn straight I’m gonna support Democrats, in about 99.9% of all cases. (I have cast a Republican ballot 8 times, in my lifetime) Just like, you’re gonna support Republicans, in most cases.
Also, I personally know Kasim Reed. There is not one racist bone in that man’s body.
I happen to think he’s the best choice. I thought it the day he announced.
WEs… It has been about 25 years since I took ConLaw…. all I really took from it is that what the US Constitution says does not always mean what it means. lol
I seem to remember that the application of the 14th amendment has been extended to all kinds of people and situations.
Under the strict meaning of the words, then, it would seem that foreign nationals here in the US visiting are not protected by teh 14th amendment. Is that true? Even if he is arrested for a crime here?
My view on the issue is this: Abortion is an issue the states should decide. Roe v Wade was unconstitutional and politicized an issue that should never have been politicized. Since obviously abortion is an issue not mentioned in the Constitution, states should elect what kinds of laws they will have. Unfortunately far too many on both sides use it as a politcal football. For those of us who actually have loved ones who’ve had to weigh something that serious, the whole debate really seems petty.
jason
I think it is nice to say in the abstract “we want to cherish all human life”. It is a very noble sentiment. But the devil is in the details. How would you go about enforcing the law? Would women go to jail? Everytime I have asked that, the reply has been “No, of course”. We would jail the doctors. I come from Italy and abortion was illegal when I was growing up. The doctors didn’t perform the illegal abortions, it was done by unlicensed individuals. Besides, if it is murder as the pro-lifers say it is then why give the woman a pass? She is the one going to the clinic. Doctors are not going door to door soliciting abortions. Why the hypocrisy?!
551. Have to overturn Roe first, then.
Then the legislatures of all 50 states have their say…. all weight the factors and interests, and do their thing.
I would bet that most, if not all, states would permit abortions to be performed within the first trimester, would prohibit those after that except for rape, incest, life of hte mother, and would require parental notification and/or consent.
I would think womens groups would then lobby to prohibit sex selection abortion at any point.
Strictly speaking, yes, Bayern. Unfortunately it also means babies born to illegals on US soil are citizens. For that reason, I think we need a new amendment that clarifies those provisions of the 14th Amendment.
Got work to do. Later!
I would hope so, Bayern.
Yes the people should be permitted to govern themselves on this issue. This is America, after all. We can deal with it.
563 Add that to the “to do” list for the Const. Convention.
Good point, Bayern.
#563 This does need clarification – {In my view one parent must be required to be a legal citizen}
567 – Added. Next issue.
new thread above
Bayern, under the 14th Amendment, constitutional rights are limited to those born in the US or naturalized citizens. Comment by Wes
NOPE, it refers to all PERSONS~~~~2nd para;
14th amend:
Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside.
No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
All persons born or naturalized, DQ. You might want to learn how to read next time, idiot.
I AM a libertarian-conservative (and pro-gun and pro-life), but we cannot let the Ayn Rand & Goldbug wing take over the GOP.
because believe me, they are considered nuttier than the worst gun nut in Idaho, or the pro-life man with the fetus in the jar who stands across the street from Planned Parenthood every day.
Jesus NEVER said a darn thing about abortion or homosexuality.
Comment by Chekote — November 5, 2009 @ 1:55 pm
How about this:
Matthew 19:4 He answered, “Have you not read that he who made them from the beginning made them male and female,
Matthew 19:5 and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’?
Matthew 19:6 So they are no longer two but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let not man put asunder.”
God made them male and female, not male and male, etc.
My favourites are Jack Conway or Trey Grayson
You still have not answered my question. What’s wrong with Ron Paul???
How is he nutty?
“He runs unopposed in the primary every two years.”
Bullcrap. Ron Paul was challenged by Cynthia Sinatra in 2006 and Chris Peden in 2008 in the GOP primary. Sinatra in 2006 and Peden in 2008 each spent nearly $150,000 of their own money trying to beat Paul and each lost by over 40 percentage points in the primary.
“8.I think this is very typical of the Paul Polling method. Paul ran 10-15 percent in some polls in 2008 as his supporters actually over polled.”
LOL. Keep telling yourself that. Paul polled at 4% the day before Iowa and finished with 10%. The only poll that EVER had him that high was a New Hampshire poll on January 4th that had him at 14% in that state. All NH polls after that and before their primary showed him with 6-8% and he ended up with 8%.
The national polls all had Paul consistently between 1-5%. And he finished with 6%.
There was no over-polling of Ron in 2008. But if that is what you need to help you sleep over Grayson’s declining campaign; please do.
Remember folks, Cornyn and McConnell supposedly “got the message.”
That means they are staying out of the primaries.
If Grayson doesn’t get funding from the big dogs….he could be hurting (a good thing.)
Rand has all the momentum so he just needs to keep his message tight and not get off track.
“I think this is very typical of the Paul Polling method. Paul ran 10-15 percent in some polls in 2008 as his supporters actually over polled. Grayson wins twice in 2008 in KY”
Yes, He did underperform. However, in all of those polls, Ron Paul was always winning like 40% of the youth vote, and none of them ever showed up to ACTUALLY vote.
In this poll, Grayson is winning the youth vote, and Ron is winning the old people. Who knows why.
I see that Dr. Paul’s detractors have their usual infantile taunts to toss off, and nothing resembling a cogent point to make against him. Hell, the best Greyson could come up with was to brag that his family has been in Kentucky for a long time!
Sorry Trey, but the days when we could afford to nominate someone just because he plays golf with the right people and is willing to be bought and sold like most of the other clowns on the hill are over. This country is out of money, our federal government is out of control, and we need as many people like Rand Paul as we can get.
-jcr
576,
“My favorites are Jack Conway or Trey Grayson”
LOL Exactly the Paulites POINT!!!! The Republicrat politicians are interchangeable!
You guys are are supporting Greyson
who stumped for Clinton when he was a dem.
To big a tent for me.
If Paul Fails might as well vote Democrat.
The guy who Grayson pays to follow Rand Paul has somehow gotten the nickname Pancakes in the Kentucky race
The SouthPark Tribute to Ole’ Pancakes
Advice to Paul’s detractors:
If you want people to pay attention to you, you probably shouldn’t use the word “loon” or “nutcase” in every one of your comments.
Fact is, on most college campuses, the Young Americans for Liberty group are already larger and holding more meetings than the equivalent college Republicans. You can either accept the future and understand that to young people, Paul, Judge Napolitano, Thomas Woods, and other libertarians are the only people who can credibly defend economic liberty and free market capitalism, or you can come to this realization after the Republican party is out of power for another 40 years.
Problem is, by that time we will probably already have been socialism as much as Europe, if not worse.
lol … some of you guys are absolutely clueless when it comes to supporting what you claim to believe in because you have no beliefs. you can’t call yourself a conservative or a republican for that matter if you support candidates who support big government, whine about democrats all day, and bring nothing to the table but socialism lite … you obviously have not done any of the reading you claim you have.
the fact of the matter is that fiscal conservatism and the gold standard is a great idea … yes the United States props up dictators and then later claims them to be enemies … yes we overthrow governments and pretend that they are hostile to us because they hate our freedom … and yes our policies have consequences both domestic and foreign … but oh no such a view must be that of a crackpot
you obviously have a lot of reading to do, A GREAT DEAL OF READING, and fox news does not count as reading .. you and mitt romney, and trey grayson, and lindsey graham, and john mccain, are all de-facto communists and you don’t have the balls to admit it .. what ever happened to that slogan country first? .. maybe that never came to full bloom because your policy was party first
You people are all delusional. Just like a bunch of little kids playing cowboys and Indians. Republicans and democrats have been making themselves wealthy at your expense since this false right left paradigm, two party fraud started. They all for the most part, with the exception of a few, Ron Paul for one, have been hand in hand with the FED since that ponzi scheme started in 1913. Are you people really that stupid. In 1913 the FED, ADL, FBI and the IRS were established. And you’ve been paying these thieves ever since. The two party fraud runs interference by making you believe one or the other is going to make things better. It’s show business, not good show business. I’d equate it to a level far below the WWE..professional wrestling is more convincing. Pay your taxes, that go straight to the bank owners, your a stupid slave. If you don’t pay up the IRS makes a call and they carry guns…I’ve got a definition for that “Armed Robbery” Even if you just a bunch of trolls your scum. In this world if your not a top member of the elite you don’t count, and folks there ain’t anyone here that counts, that is unless we rid the world of the FEDS and regain real representation in govt. Go Rand !