Health Care Debate: Votes Begin
Voting has begun on the Republican substitute amendment and Stupak amendment.
Meanwhile, the Democrats in favor of the Obama/Pelosi Health care Bill claim they have the 218 votes they need for the overall bill. That vote will come later one would assume if they have the votes as they claim….
Some of you might have seen an earlier post on the Stupak Amendment. I was a little quick hitting the Publish Button not realizing the electronic vote on the amendment had been delayed. I apologize for the confusion
1
Stupak going down! ?
We won’t know until about 10 seconds are left in the vote HD
107 D’s NAY!
28 Dems so far supporting the Stupak Amendment
113 NAY!
116 YEA; 124 NAY; 195 NV
No Republicans voting present.
37 Dems supporting
41
151 y 145 n
Stupak is going to pass.
Looks like it will pass.
Bluedogs now have their cover.
47 Dems for…interesting
Not only do they have their cover….they can strip it out in conference.
Elections have consequences.
Thank You Catholic Church. You now have helped make America socialist.
Not only do they have their cover….they can strip it out in conference.
…
That will be proven when the left-wingers vote for the final bill.
Their voting for it means they KNOW it will be stripped.
Amendment passes easily.
Give Ted Kennedy a Catholic Funeral and Eulogy, give Pelosi the Public Option.
A dark Day for American Catholics.
“Thank You Catholic Church. You now have helped make America socialist.”
The Catholic Church never endorsed the crazy Blue Dogs.
Yup, it passes
What will the bishops do when they are sandbagged on this issue at the conference. They will have lost their chance to stop it,and furthered the cause of national socialsism.
Howard, you are exactly right. The amendment was always a sham.
Why the hell are Republicans voting for it? This is all window dressing that will be gone in committee.
Phil we have nothing left. Protestants are Pro Gay Marriage, Judaism vote 90% Oabama, Catholics steer America towards Socialism.
just tuned in, what is stupak amendment?
Tommy,
Because our “leadership” is clueless.
Why the hell are Republicans voting for it? This is all window dressing that will be gone in committee.
Comment by Tommy_Boy — November 7, 2009 @
The GOP has always been clueless.
Our leadership is such a joke. Anyone can see Stupak is a shuckster.
haha
So much for voting present,
Ever notice how Republicans always talk a good game.
If the Senate version of the bill also contains the provision that prevents abortion coverage, can it still be stripped out in conference??
And, why wouldn’t the Senate version contain a similar provision? It seems like that would be one of the concessions Reid would have to make to Red state Democratic Senators.
Ohio Joe, the Bishops have supported a 1 trillion dollar Socialist Bill because they could care less about freedom, just Abortion.
They did the same thing in Europe
Boehner should be dumped. Supported Dede a pro Abort
I have no confidence that GOP Seante Leadership will be any better.
Anything can be stipped out in conference regardless of whatever each house has done. In fact, the whole bill can be written from scratch. It’s happened lots of times.
With marxists controlling the conference comm. it is a moot point anyway.
“Boehner should be dumped. Supported Dede a pro Abort”
BINGO!
Boehner Amendment just went down on a straight party line vote – just in case anyone actually thought we will have the votes to stop Pelosi when her version is voted on.
OJ,
Good to see you over here my man.
Almost ready for Act III of the play = Everything going according to Nancy’s script.
How in the hell can the Church be so stupid to trust a evil Pro-Abort like Pelosi? She advocates late term Abortion.
The Catholic Church just sold out America to Obama.
So the Stupak amendment passed?
Who the heck is the R that voted no on the Boehner amendment?
Intrade might know something. They are still at 6.5 to pass in 2009.
Cao?
#42 Brandon
Probably Cantor so that he would be on the winning side of the vote, that way he has standing to ask later for a motion to reconsider.
Come on Jason – just add them to the list of sellouts – AMA, pharmacyticals, AARP…why not the church too?
I defended the Church during the gay priest scandals, but no more.
The sTock market will take 500 point dive on Monday’s open
tim johnson was the R
I’ll say we get 32 blue dogs – My prediction is 209 NOs on the final passage.
Nothing like a play that follows a script.
It was Tim Johnson from IL who voted against Boehner.
Nope, the stock market will go up. It always goes up. We’re in recovery you know.
#48 Tommy_Boy
You probably should get a life if you’re watching CSPAN on a Sat night. (Like I am)
Start selecting your short positions now, have them ready. Vote with your pocketbook.Galt these bastids.
Phil, NRO saying 35 nays. Bocerri of Ohio a Nay.
IF GOP votes no, makes it 223-212.
Well, I’m out of here. Enjoy the final act fellows.
Oh, and for those of you who think this thing will be stopped in the Senate, don’t forget that Democrats didn’t steal that 60th senate vote for Frankin for nothing.
Enjoy, your new overlords.
Church is a joke. I will not give them another dime so they can lobby for Socialism.
Should have known, Pope is from Socialist Germany.
Jason, in 2010 the same bishops will say that Catholics cannot vote for people running for national office that are pro abortion. Will they still be sellouts then? I agree that they should not involve themselves on issues that in the end the catholic official position is that Catholics can agree or disagree and vote their convictions. However they are completely unwaivering on the issue of whether a catholic can vote for a proabortion senator or house member. We are directed to vote against them and every church encourages their member to review their voter guide which is very clear on this issue. The priests at our parish are all raging conservatives, as is the bishop that was my hall rector at ND and baptized my oldest. They are not monolithic
Tim Johnson from IL ~~~68 ACU rating. rino in the making
Anyone who took the time to read the Catholic Bishops’ statement on health care would know that there is NO surprise in all this. BTW, what is wrong with a group of Catholic clergy — Pro-Life — making petition and asking for redress to their elected officials? Nothing! If there is shame here, it is in the manipulative manner that Dems AND Republicans have chosen to handle the matter. When the pro-abortion language is eventually put BACK IN, which it will in conference, then the Blue Dogs, et al, will get another opportunity to show how craven they are. The Catholic Bishops have acted honorably here, period.
What is stupak amendment?
Kossacks are completely livid that the Stupak Amendment passed.
Michael2. Agreed
What is stupak amendment?
Comment by invalid11 —
Go ask your buddy jokeleaf acroso
“When the pro-abortion language is eventually put BACK IN, which it will in conference, then the Blue Dogs, et al, will get another opportunity to show how craven they are. The Catholic Bishops have acted honorably here, period.” BINGO, the Church is not to blame, but the Right to Life will be to blame if they endorse these Blue Dog clowns in 2010.
This thing is going to get delayed again. Maybe to Monday or sometime next week.
How do you know that?
#66
Based on what?
Hope or change?
http://campaignspot.nationalreview.com/post/?q=YmE2ZDkyNTQ5MTViYTdhM2VlOGJhOTIxYzk2YTUyNTY=
Stupak amendment to get struck down by S.C.?
“Obama’s Ace in the Hole on the Stupak Amendment?
Pro-lifers may think they’ve got a win with the Stupak amendment, but I can’t help but wonder what Supreme Court Justice Sonia Sotomayor and Obama’s future justices will think of it.
With a few exceptions, the pro-choicers among the Democrats don’t seem all that worried or upset, do they?
“
Uh 5 to 4 moron unless you can’t count.
Stupid Republicans falling into the trap. Now, many Blue Dogs have cover to vote for it now. Sad day in America. Depressing listening to the callers on C-Span…Saying that the Govt needs to control health care like Canada. One clueless guy even said, that a free country like the US should have govt health care.
It’s kind of annoying that the S.C. can strike down parts of a bill but not the entire bill.
As in they keep the parts of McCain-Feingold they want, and get rid of the parts the prefer rather than strike the entire thing down.
Maybe that’s just the way the law works so I’ll have to think about that more.
Joe and Hugh I apologize. I as a Catholic am just mortified at this conspiracy to appease socialism.
i predict 222-213, yes.
I do not believe that the house would vote for a bill without the public option that bans abortion and forbids insurance to illegals.
Rope a dope.
This vote is meaningless. Pelosi may get her 218 but it accomplishes nothing
I predict it gets delayed. See you all later!
The amendment was just a conspiracy to get the Blue Dogs votes
With a few exceptions, the pro-choicers among the Democrats don’t seem all that worried or upset, do they?
“
Comment by invalid11
That’s because they know it will be removed in conference with the senate version.It will never get to the supreme court. The fix was in before the vote was even taken.
#75
Seems like those are the items that wouldn’t let a senate version past either. However, if no public option, why would the far left agree either.
Now let’s sit and see which Blue Frauds are going to committ political suicide.
Where they tell catholics how they need to vote to be catholic they are strongly on our side. Everything else is window dressing. I too am frustrated that they often support liberal fiscal policy, but they dont ask us to follow. However, at the national level they strongly advocate that we follow catholic doctrine, which is pro life. Also, in the last election cycle they blasted aggressively many key dems such as nancy pelosi. In fact in our diocese the bishop made every parish read a letter from him making basicly blasting nancy pelosi. I am in the miami diocese. Actually in the last 30 years they have become much less liberal and at the national level attack dems regularly on the abortion issue.
Seems like those are the items that wouldn’t let a senate version past either. However, if no public option, why would the far left agree either.
Comment by Brutus
Because this thing is a massive power grab even without the option.
Final vote in progress.
Marv, it will pass. blue Dogs and the Catholic Church sold out America’s Freedom.
According to the national review there are 18 left undecided. Down from 35, does anyone know if any of the 17 Democrats that just took a position is voting no? Here is the link but all it says is the undecided people
http://www.nationalreview.com/doctor/post/?q=MWEyMzc0YTdhMWE4ZDYzMmM2Yjg0Mjc5NzgyNmI2Y2Q=
It will pass today, but its a pyrrhic victory. Obamas approval ratings will continue to slide and dems will be fleeing the sinking ship in the senate. If we can get passed the end of the year, the political landscape will continue to slide.
215 – 209 so far
past
passed
Any traitor repubs vote for it??
i hope it is more than 218, so we want have to be second guessing about the NY23.
Whoa, one R just voted yea.
a republican voted for it
Actually it is narrow enough for the seante to reject
It wouldn’t matter, Dems would let another one just take a dive.
caio, he is done
Heh, Cao voted for it
5 freakin votes
Cao
The bill is bipartisan! The bill is bipartisan!
caio allowed one other ble dog cover
Wow, Elections do matter…. I have to wonder if we could have held onto NY23, Denny Hasbert’s old seats, etc.
i hope it is more than 218, so we want have to be second guessing about the NY23.
Comment by David
They’ve always had enough votes to pass it.It was never a quetion. Piglosi could peel off enough “blue hogs” to pass, at any time. This monkey motion was to give some of the cover back home. The new york vote would have been meaningless.
I knew that stupid scumbag would vote for he is. He is not a republican and was going to run as a dem. He is an imbecile. A disgrace to the massive majority of vietnamese people who vote Republican.
Cao is gone anyway.
Yeah, its bipartisan – it will be on the front page tomorrow
“Overwhelming Bi-Partisan Support for ScaryCare”
RIP, Bart Gordon, TN. Your goose is cooked. See ya wouldn’t wanna be ya.
Cao did wait until it had 218 to vote yes. I think if he was the deciding vote he would have voted no.
What happens now. It’s not looking good. The democrats have the seats in the senate to pass this without a filibuster …
219-215. DOA in the Senate. Cao allows another blue dog cover.
Thank You Catholic Church
Gordon voted for it? Oh man!
LOL!!!!
if they had the votes they would be voting next week in the senate
Dio, how do you figure? Coburn is going to shut everything down.
ATTENTION! Its time to boot RINO’s and Blue Dogs. This couldn’t happen without BLUE DOGS.
Blue dogs are just modern day carpet baggers….go to hell blue dogs!
Anybody have a roll call list?
108 Seante is Different, the would need at least one Republican to vote for it. At least 6 DEMS say no Public Option.
#101 They would have gotten 218 period with the majority they have….just different arms will be twisted….
Jason, do you think a single vote was swayed by what the catholic church said?
Coburn is a Doctor also. He will fight blood and spit to stop it.
Yes, Hugh. Starting with Ellsworth and Stupak.
#115 Again, SO FREAKING what about the damm public option….
They drop it, then it passes the Senate….
Wala, government run health care passes….
They can just put in that damm thing or worse a few years later….
#116, True…if we had another 5 -6 republicans, they would just twist more arems like you said.
You would need 60 votes to end debate. If the so-called moderate dems vote to discontinue debate but allow the bill to pass 51-49, it will get passed.
Coburn can only shut down the Senate with 41 votes adamantly against HC reform.
There are tons of reliably liberal senators that don’t care about reelection that are going to vote for this. Hagan, Franken, Begeich. Their constituencies don’t support the bill but they will vote for it anyway come hell or high noon.
The longterm moderate dems not up for election in 2010 might risk it. That leaves a very short list of senators that must be courted.
I am not hopeful …
Again, this was all show and BS today….
It was always in the Bag….
Thats why Obama went up there….watch the headlines about his “awesome leadership”…..gotta build the cult up
#120, even without the public option, the regulations will force insurance out of business.
This is the worst situation for us. It worked out beautifully for Pelosi.
Plenty of “blue-dog” democrats were able to feign cover.
It will not only drive insurers out of business, it will do little to drive down healthcare costs are spur innovation. All this has done is socialized the cost of the extremely sick to the rest of society and mandated a shitty minimum level of care to all of us that we will have to pay twice as much for because the 5% of Americans completely dependent on public healthcare are now going to be 100% reliable democratic voters.
Democrats, buying our Republic one voter at a time.
Problem Dio, they have to vote for cloture. Any red state Dem knows if they vote for cloture but vote no for the bill, the public won’t buy it.
I don’t have much faith of it being stopped in the Senate. Times like this, you just have to have faith in God….only thing we can do. USA will never be the same again. So many Americans belive the lies spread by the Dems and MSM.
I dont think so. If a catholic bishop or bishops tried to say we strongly object to socialized medicine, so what who cares. It is not a religious issue. However, they do say as a catholic you cannot support a proabortion candidate that may mean something to a practicing (key word practicing) catholics. Are either of those two congressmen catholic? I think the only thing the catholic bishops did was make all this harder for pelosi. And if this language is stripped from any final bill they will aggressively oppose it, not just because of the politics but because it violates an absolute truth. The bishops have already said if the catholic hospitals are forced to do abortions they will shut them down. Now that is political influence that means something.
Their home states might not buy it. But those senators not up in 2010 and with a longer term of incumbency might feel strong enough to vote for it and hope the benefits kick in and buy enough votes in their home states for them to get re-elected. That is strongly what I feel and their obdurance right now is just all for show so they have cover when re-election comes up.
We’ve seen this before when medicare was passed and when taxes were raised in 1993. The entire southern democratic delegation basically sacrificed themselves for the cause. Enormous healthcare cost increase is due to medicare as more and more of our population becomes covered under Johnson’s government trojan horse.
God save these United States.
Hugh how can you support the Church?
They did not just endorse the Stupak bill, but the whole bill with the public Option.
Phoenix I hope you’re right. However, I fear the public will “buy it” because the MSM will sell it to them.
Screw the Blue Dogs. Please contribute to districts opposing Blue Dogs. My district, Murfreesboro, TN has a Blue Dog ripe for the picking (Bart Gordon) any help will be greatly appreciated. Its time for political cleansing among conservatives……especially in the South.
Cloture or reconciliation… one way or another, you fools are going to get a much better healthcare system, despite your hysterical protests.
In the words of Craig Ferguson, it’s a great day for America.
The Canadian prick speaks….
Intrade still has the Senate rejecting it at 6.5 to pass.
Cory is a worthless canadian and is unemployed. What does he care?
Blue dogs voted for this crap?
A Canadian socialist telling us what is great for America
LMAO
#132 Well Phil buddy, you were absolutely freaking correct…
This was just a day long pre-writen soap opera….
The outcome was never in doubt…
Big PR show will be had tomorrow on Obama’s “couragous” leadership…
Cory, good luck with reconciliation. The only hope you have of passing anything before the 2010 elections is to get 60 votes.
Cory,
Screw you and your socialist agenda. This country was based on freedom and capitalism. This is another example of the federal government granting liberties to themselves despite the constitutional restrictions that were put in place by men smarter than me and you. So STAY THE HELL IN CANADA AND STAY THE HELL OUT OF HERE.
Jason, How can I support the Church? I have no problem supporting he church. I am not catholic because it furthers my political beliefs, but because I believe in Catholic doctrine. Where the church advocates a position that they say is not left to the convictions of the individual they are solidly conservative. There position on various bills are just that their personal views, and they make it very clear that we are to consider their views but can vote according to our own views. My view is that the catholic church over the last 30 years is turning more and more conservative. And contrary to popular belief is not losing membership unlike the other christian faiths in this country. I think in the next 10 years we will move much more strongly to the republican camp. Without the strong catholic antiabortion position and catholics voting accordingly, we will not be a majority party.
Phil stop whining…man up please.
If something gets signed, watch out for states exercising their 10th amendment soverignty and the union will be split.
The GOP needs to get its act together. We cannot have the Club for Growth and other indie groups damage the GOP nominee for the general election. We need to recruit good candidate that represent the district and will vote to put Boehner in charge.
Phil,
Its a good day to whine but its a better day to be mad as hell.
The turd riseth from the punchbowl.
I don’t know why Cory is so happy. Where are the Canadians going to go now for healthcare? The US is their safety valve. Once shut, their system will explode.
Roll Call:
http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2009/roll887.xml
Except for the abortion issue, the Catholic Church leans Left.
phoenixrisen,
I welcome the notion of a split as long as I live in the South.
Chekote,
Screw the GOP. I’m for the split.
Michael crawls out from under his rock to take another shot at me. Hey bud, don’t you ever have anything else to comment on besides me? I didn’t think so.
Seriosly pal, how about you get a life?
Ignore cory.
#134 you are a fool….
you wait in 6 month long lines to die up there and that’s better?
I got news for you idiot….if we adopt the lunacy of government run health care here, that FREE RIDE you are getting from us innovating all the medical technology and drugs will end….
then you can really die early and in more pain….
you are a freaking serf to the government anyways so I suppose you dont care as long as you get your freakin pitful handout from your masters….
However, we choose to remain a free and independent people…
Cao is the only Republican voting for this bill. I dunno why. He is gone in 2010.
Since the Nov. 3 election, we have seen Dede and Owens show their true stripes. Owens broke 4 pledges TODAY.
So Chekote — the Conservative Party did the right thing!
Agree Chekote, but practicing catholics are only asked to vote with their views on one and only one issue abortion. Also, catholics have become far more affluent over the last 30 years and hence more republican. They are key to our future.
Screw the GOP. I’m for the split.
I was for a third party after 2008. But after seeing the performance of third/indie candidates on Tuesday, a split GOP will ensure that Pelosi stays in charge.
#146 Uh, this IS NOT a GOP problem…..
If you noticed, 219 statists D voted to enslave us….
Trying to foster further spilts in the GOP wont help so please spare the ranting tonight
chekote…you are right again we must unite or face fiscal ruin
Keep it comin’ boys…
Got a pretty big grin on my face at the moment.
Tonight is step #1 for compassion, pragmatism, justice and sense winning out over ignorance, fear and stupidity.
The 2008 election was a big victory for those who know what they’re doing. And those who have no freakin’ clue are finally beginning to understand the consequences. Enjoy.
Why did Tim Johnson vote no on the Boehner amendment?
156-People, Cao represents a D25 district. He is gone no matter how he votes. Of course that is why he should have voted no anyway.
I think Cory is a mentally disturbed butt pirate who also has a deep affection for s barn animals!
The Catholic Church is constantly meddling in politics. Always has. There is no bigger enabler of illegal immigration than the Catholic Church. I think they should be stripped of the tax exemption. They endorsed the HC bill.
If amnesty passes, there will be no future for the GOP, or the country. The catholic church has always been pro amnesty.
Wylie
All I am saying is that we need to find candidates that appeal to the district they run. We can’t get caught up in idelogical stands that will lead to Pelosi staying in charge. We need numbers in 2010. As long as the agenda and leadership in Congress is fiscally responsible and market oriented, let’s not get caught up in stuff like he hugged Obama or he isn’t ragging on Obama enough.
The Catholic Church is liberal, big government liberal. The only exception is abortion.
Dem No Votes: Kucinich voted no (some here were wondering).
1.Adler (NJ)
2.Altmire
3.Baird
4.Barrow
5.Boccieri
6.Boren
7.Boucher
8.Boyd
9.Bright
10.Chandler
11.Childers
12.Davis (AL)
13.Davis (TN)
14.Edwards (TX)
15.Gordon (TN)
16.Griffith
17.Herseth Sandlin
18.Holden
19.Kissell
20.Kosmas
21.Kratovil
22.Kucinich
23.Markey (CO)
24.Marshall
25.Massa
26.Matheson
27.McIntyre
28.McMahon
29.Melancon
30.Minnick
31.Murphy (NY)
32.Nye
33.Peterson
34.Ross
35.Shuler
36.Skelton
37.Tanner
38.Taylor
39.Teague
169
100% correct
If you noticed, 219 statists D voted to enslave us….
I know what you mean and I agree with you. But honestly, I don’t believe using words like statist, enslavement are effective in gaining the vote of the indie. Words like “your premiums are going to go up” are more effective IMO.
#170
They voted to put Pelosi in charge therefore, they voted for HC reform.
You guys misunderstand me. I’m not for splitting parties and yes the GOP has let conservatives down, though not on this vote. I’m for splitting the union.
Maybe I am brain dead, but in my 30 years of going to church every sunday, I have never heard a catholic priest advocate for illegal immigration. I have heard them rail against abortion and educate us prior to elections on what the catholic position is and isnt. There is no catholic doctrine that I am aware of that says as a catholic I must be for illegal immigration. I am quite sure it doesnt exist. The anti catholicism on this board is actually very disturbing to me. I like to think we are the open minded ones and not the bigots.
#174
Not realistic. Too many commercial interests and ties for that to happen. Instead of wasting energy on stuff that is highly unlikely to happen, let’s put our energy in increasing the GOP numbers in 2010.
Chekote (173),
My point exactly. Oppose the Blue Dogs and RINO’s.
I’m scared
I have never heard a catholic priest advocate for illegal immigration.
I suggest you check out the immigration counseling and services that Catholic Charities offers to illegals. They might not talk about it at the pulpit but Catholic Charities is heavily involved in fighting the deportation of illegals.
Chekote,
Maybe unrealistic but I don’t know this country anymore. I have nothing to be proud of in the present only the past. We are turning into a bunch of p***#’s.
Hugh
I don’t think it’s bigotry
There are many very legitimate reasons to be upset at the Catholic Chursh re the Church’s positions on today’s political issues
The Catholic Church, at which I hold no ill will, needs to understand that massive immigration will ensure we have the most liberal abortion laws in the world. Obama won Hispanics 2-1, and McCain was good in their eyes in immigration.
illegal enablers
Jerkraldo is beside himself in glee.
#162
“Tonight is step #1 for compassion, pragmatism, justice and sense winning out over ignorance, fear and stupidity.”
You are a useful idiot…..a flat out fool!
Compassion? At the point of the government’s guns! yeah that real compassion coming from the heart – get the police to rob from your neighbor….condeming millions to die early and in more pain is your idea of compassion?
Pragmatism? 110 trillion in unfunded liablilities and 12 trillion in national debt! Adding 3 trillion more in entitilement spending is pragmatic…
Justice? Taking away individual rights and freedoms is justice? Forcing people to buy a private product or go to jail is justice?
Boy you are one sick monkey!
So tell me Cory-o? Are you mature and responsible enough to fiqure out how to make your own choices in life? If so, why do you assume other cannot and therefore need you to dictate what is “pragmatic” for them?
Why do you arrogantly assume you know best for others?
To me you are just a petty frustrated dictator….you have ceded your freedom to techoncrats and elitist in government and you get to eat s^&t out of their garbage can in return!
You are a sad-sack loser….
#183
The Catholic Church lost a lot of money and membership after the molestation scandals. The see immigrants from Latin America has the only way to keep their pews filled.
Someone post some pretty women to take my mind off of this goat****
#184
I know. I had to turn him off.
220 votes, do I get a cookie?
The church wants more tithe paying memebers to fatten their coffers.Most hispanics are catholic.Aiding and abetting them is illegal.
#184 Petty tyrannts and useful idiots the world over are cheering in glee…..
Isnt it sad how these fools are literally clapping and cheering and clamoring for their chains of enslavement!
180 I’m sorry I meant “we’re turning into a bunch of Cory’s.”
I know, its the same thing. Just sit back, whine, moan and wait for somebody else to make it all better.
You are a sad-sack loser….
Comment by wylie e. coyote -
Actually he sounds like a pimple faced salad tosser hanging around the barnyard looking for a girlfriend.
#149 – Cory doesn’t think things though that far.
As someone who grew up with the Vatican literally in my backyard, let me share this Italian saying:
“Do what the priest says but not what he does”. Catholic doctrine is fine. But don’t follow the example set by the Church on any political issue.
It is fair to criticize the catholic bishops positions on various issues. It is very unfair to treat their positions as if they are part of the catholic doctrine and paint the church with a broad brush. We have very few positions, basicly primarily one political position that Catholics are told they must follow.
BTW mfg, I think the line has been crossed. The comments on this board are outragious regarding views on the catholic church, due to political statements that are not preached in the church to its parishioners. Unlike many protestant churches I can honestly say the only sermons that I have heard in church that have any political tone relate to abortion. would you guys like for me to post links on the sexual abuse recorded in other christian churchs its record is pretty close to our sorry record. I wouldnt want to tarnish all the fine work of those churches because of the actions of some. do research its out there. Churches are filled with needy people and people in power willing to abuse their positions. It is the nature of people.
Also, I wish Republicans would quit the props. I don’t like a seven month old being used to make political points. What the American people is looking for, desperatly needs is grown up leadership. Let’s quit the gimmicks and go back to being the party of the responsible adults instead of the party of celebrities.
#172 Chek, I am not running for anything here on HHR so I say what I want….
As I said earlier today, on an issue this large there are many messages that conservative politicans can use to be effetive….
however, A BIG ONE better be about protecting our individual rights and freedoms….
IF we are already at the point in this country where talking about your personal freedom and individual rights “turn off independents” or is a “political loser” then we are lost….
We need to educate people on how their personnal prosperity is DIRECTLY tied to the amount of FREEDOM they have because that the truth of the matter!
#196
Hugh
The Catholic Church is more than sermons. It is about their activities through Catholic Charities.
Cao sold us out, lovely, can’t wait to sell him out.
#198
Most people are worried about whether they can make their car, house payments. You going on about the statists is ineffective. That’s my point.
Cao is gone anyway.
#197 Oh come on, doesnt the little baby resonate with “independents”
Every freakin’ piece of socialist nanny state intervention is pimped as being “for the children”
Maybe people need to be reminded that its not in their children’s best interst to leave a bankrupt nation and one were you have no personal freedom or rights!
D…many churches ask for tithing, but Catholics do not. Please….only catholics raise money? You think poor immigrants increase verus reduce our coffers? How ignorant? We want poor immigrants to enter our country so we can get more money? How pathetic. Give me the logic one more time. I guess you guys want a small tent. No room for fiscally conservative, socially conservative catholics.
Cao knows he’s gone. He was auditioning for a position in the Obama Administration or a position in some big time Dem donor’s business or corporation.
#203
I say we need for an adult to go before the American people and explain why the Dems’ approach will NOT improve healthcare. It will not lower premiums. And explain that judges will restore coverage for illegals and abortions.
#201 Again, it doesnt matter what I “go off on”
I just blog on HHR….
Our sainted GOP establishment politicians had better learn how to relate to the voters that their freedom and wallet are interrelated
the more free they are the wealthier they become….
If you simply talk about giving them free goodies, then thats the democrats game…..R lose that all day long
#204
Instead of getting into a huff, why don’t you check out the services that Catholic Charities offers as far as fighting deportations of illegals. Also, is not like poor illegals will stay poor forever. They want to fill their pews. An empty church will be shut down.
The Catholic Church is liberal, big government liberal. The only exception is abortion.
Comment by Chekote
I also agree with Chekote on this and also the amnesty illegal immigration that DQ mentioned.
Although I am a Christian, there is a great deal about the Catholic Church that I find disturbing, particularly when it deviates from Scripture and chooses the “traditions of men” over the clear teachings of the Bible.
But hey, let’s not make our coalition any smaller. We desperately need the Catholic vote. As much as we can get.
Chekote, I would put catholic charities up against united way any time. Are there things they contribute to that I would not? Hell yes. We are not monolithic. What large organization doesnt do things that we preferred they did not? I am not so small minded as to take the bits and pieces I dont like become offended and pick up my ball and go home. I dont like it that some republicans voted for bushes prescription drug program. I guess I should not vote republican any more.
There needs to be an Intrade market on whether the Stupak amendment survives committee.
When it doesn’t, I think we all know what the 25 that voted for the amendment and the House bill will vote when the time comes to vote for a bill without the Stupak amendment.
I hate this country so much.ha!
20 million illegals @ one dollar each for the church ==20 million bucks.
You do the math.
1$ per week==over 1 billion bucks per year
The reason why the Catholic vote is a swing vote is because most Catholics DON’T listen to the the Church when it comes to politics. If they did, they would be voting for big government, more welfare programs and amnesty.
Tim V…I respectfully disagree that the catholic church is liberal on everything except abortion. They are very very socially conservative not just related to abortion. On fiscal matter they are a mixed bag, but not on social issues.
#210
Blah, blah, blah. The point is that Catholic Charities is heavily involved in fighting the deportation of illegals. Do you think it is right for the Chruch to assist people who broke the laws of this country. How would you feel if the assisted criminal in avoiding the law. Oh wait, they did in the child molestation cases.
Cory
Its a shame you always hit and run instead of stay around and debate because Id like to address your statements, and have some intellectual discourse with you.
I think first of all your statement “now youll have better healthcare” is wrong. We already have the worlds best healthcare. Its not something you can really debate its the truth. We have the best medicines, the best technology, the best doctors, the best hospitals, the best research, etc. What I think you meant to say is that you believe that people will have better access to healthcare. you see this isnt healthcare reform, its health insurance reform.
Here is where your argument falls apart. This so-called “plan” that passed today is projected to raise the percentage of people with health insurance from 85% to 94%. so in effect, its costing about 130Billion per percent to insure these people.
The quality of care will decrease, if only from doctors that will leave practice, and the lack of replacements. Those who enter the profession will be more and more from foreign countries and the quality will decrease. Not specifically because they are not as educated, but because they lack the subtleties of the language, the customs and the nuance that local doctors would have. Many patients already feel that they dont receive the same care and understanding from doctors that are foreign born. Nothing against them, but cultural differences do matter.
IT is an absolute fact that waiting time will increase, that you will have to meet certain criteria to be seen and that people will suffer.
As well, there is a heavy heavy tax consequence. The 5% tax that is being levied doesnt have the entry level figure for taxation increased at all, so in ten years its still at the same level, even when salaries will have increased by a very large factor (especially with the pending obamaflation coming).
I would also like you to address the Liberty factor. Can you explain to me how the government has the right to make you purchase a private product. Where in the constitution (no matter if you take it literally or believe in a living constitution) does it state that the government has the right to make you BUY something. This isnt even touching the fact that they not only make you buy something, they also tax you as well. You may ask why I think this is Liberty infringing. Here’s why, the governemnt is now demanding that you buy a private product, and if you dont, they have the right to the ultimate Liberty denier, prison, if you fail to comply. How is that possible and what empowers them to do this?
Given all of this, what is your argument for this system. Why is it an improvement. Specifically what does the 85% of this country that already has insurance gain from this passing?
How the did the convo get onto the catholic church?
Chekote…you have no idea what you are talking about. Practicing catholics are far more republican than non practicing catholics. YOu know those catholics who might show up for church at easter and christmas. Believe me nothing would be better for republicans than if more catholics were practicing catholics.
Most of you talk about ‘mandatory’ health insurance as a removal of rights. You are idiots.
If your country had a few more intelligent people in it, we would see a healthcare bill that actually gave your people the right that they truly deserve: complete, total, unfettered access to healthcare. But, reality is what it is. We will have to do this in steps. A public, universal system is years and years away (maybe, even, not in my lifetime). But until then, the bill that was passed in the House tonight will do a lot of good. No citizen of a civilized, afluent, democratic country deserves to die because they neglected to purchase health insurance, or because the insurance they did purchase is not ’sufficient’.
If you are sick, you get treatment. That’s the ideal. That’s what tonight has brought you closer to. Good news for ALL of your citizens, even the clueless right wing wackos that frequent this blog.
VictrC Good luck getting any kind of sane response from Cory.
Chekote…I guess we were not alone. Catholics are not immune from sin or serious sin. Churches are filled with needy people and unfortunately people who will abuse them. So is your logic then that if you are Catholic you advocate child abuse and therefore you cannot speak up on any issue, even though you have a billion followers, or are they all tainted.
http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/0405/p01s01-ussc.html
#215
Gay marriage is the only other issue. The Catholic Church is against the death penalty. Against wars. Pro-welfare programs. Pro-amnesty. Pro-socialized medicine. Pro-gun control. You name it and with the exception of abortion and same sex marriage, the Catholic Church is on the Left side of the aisle.
Most of you talk about ‘mandatory’ health insurance as a removal of rights. You are idiots.
You are the idiot who doesn’t understand that when a government mandates that you do something you have lost your individual right to make a decision.
#222
The Catholic Church can speak on any issue it likes. My point is that the Catholic Church is mostly left leaning. My other point is that if you are a 501(c) organization, tax laws prohibits you from engaging in political activities. Backing a piece of legislation is a political activity IMO.
Cory
Please lets start with a simple argument about the 85% that already have healthcare. Why do they have to have their level of care reduced so that 9% have access to more healthcare. Everyone in the country can get healthcare by going to a public hospital. This only increases their access to more healthcare for more day to day ailments.
I see nothing in our constitution that guarantees or mandates that the Government provide FREE healthcare.
I want to know how the government can demand that you purchase a private product and can jail you if you refuse to purchase it.
As well, why and by what right is the government allowed to take more money from people who earn it, above and beyond what they already do, in order to institute this system.
Chekote, the problem is a system of health `insurance`. It`s absurd. Your country should simply provide healthcare, END of story. Making people buy `insurance` for getting sick is wrong and disgusting. But as long as you insist on that system, you might as well make sure everybody has the bloody insurance.
#218
The Bishops endorsed the Dems’ bill.
No citizen of a civilized, afluent, democratic country deserves to die because they neglected to purchase health insurance, or because the insurance they did purchase is not ’sufficient’.
commie cory
What a steaming load of bravo sierra. More people die everyday on long waiting lists in your beloved socialized medicine countries than have ever died here for lack of meds. Govt can’t give you squat, that they don’t first steal from you to begin with.
Chekote you enjoy talking about things you know little about right? The Catholic church position on abortin is clear. It is an absolute truth that abortion is murder and you cannot vote for a politician who can influence abortion laws who is pro abortion if the opponent is pro life period… However, while the catholic church does not advvocate the death penalty, it is not an absolute truth and catholics can vote their convictions. I am not sure where you are coming from on the war issue. I think you made that one up along with gun control. I do not doubt that many of the clergy are gun control advocates, but it is not a political positon of which catholics are asked to vote either way.
I wish Eph wasn’t banned for nights like tonight, hahaha.
Stay out Stupak’s uterus
Cory
Im more than willing to engage you in an intelligent discussion, but based on facts, not emotion. Let’s not get into name calling but truly debate the point.
LOL see what I mean, so predictable.
“If you are sick, you get treatment.”
—
Hey to be the one to clue you in dipstick, but we have that already.
Knight, you won the off-the-record vote-prediction contest. Good job.
Your country should simply provide healthcare, END of story.
We do. The Dems have been struggling for months to show that sick people go untreated and weren’t able to find any. There are no people dying in the street because they don’t have insurance. People get healthcare. The best in the world. I hear a lot of Canadians come here for treatment so that they don’t have to wait in their country. We have a cost problem.
Your country should simply provide healthcare, END of story.
Comment by Cory
It isn’t the country that provides anything,numbnuts, but the taxpayers therein. There is no such thing as government money.
tanstaafl
Spare us your worn out marxist/leninist crap,go wait in line to die, in whatever shithole third world crapistan you happen to be squatting in.
If we adopt something closer to the Canadian system, where are the Canadians going to go when they get severely ill to get quality treatment?
Gee Cory, hope you don’t get sick. A lot can happen while you’re waiting in line for that CT Scan. But hey, it will be free won’t it pal? Too bad you’ll be dead by the time you move up in line.
235 Chekote….On this we completely agree
Here in Texas my catholic church is pretty conservative all around. The closest it gets to political is talking about abortion. It is by far the most important issue. I go to service with my mom who is Catholic often even though I am of another denomination. They do talk about liking how the bill helps the poor but that’s the closest it came to being liberal.
Upscale catholics are pretty conservative all around. Poor catholics are very fiscally liberal. So it goes. I’ll have to say this, it seems the catholic church really cares about increasing its size a lot which is not something I sense at my presbyterian congregation.
At any rate, social conservatism is weak as an issue for that reason. All the bluedogs from 2006 won as fiscally liberal, social conservatives. Hell, Owens just ran as a social conservative in NY23. The connection needs to be made that increasing the size of government degrades our values.
It does but most people don’t make the disconnect. Growth in government means the substitution of private decisions with public ones. Public decisions are not made out of a balance of reasoning between conscience and efficiency like they are in the private sector; they are made with basically one tenet in mind by legislatures: how can I buy this person’s vote with someone else’s money.
Pure and simple.
don’t make the connection*
Thanks Dr.jay, I would have rather lost and seen only 215 yea’s.
Catholic Chruch on gun control:
http://www.americamagazine.org/content/article.cfm?article_id=668
It is true that society needs to address the many deep-seated problems that lead people to behave in violent ways. At the same time, given the present climate in which some people seem to turn so easily toward violent behavior, society needs to take steps to prevent instruments that can easily kill from too readily getting into the wrong hands, and insist that those who do possess them learn how to use them responsibly and safely.
Pure liberal pap.
Catholic Church on the Iraq War:
http://www.catholic.org/featured/headline.php?ID=5230&page=1
Iraq’s future stability is related to the stability of the region. This is why U.S. leadership to advance a just peace for Israelis and Palestinians is critical. The continuing failure to achieve the vision of two states living side by side in peace and justice contributes to regional instability.
Real progress toward a fair and just Israeli-Palestinian agreement would help the region and deprive extremists of a cause they exploit to promote hate and violence. In a recent letter to Secretary of State Rice our Conference has also expressed deep concern regarding the difficult situation involving our nation, the international community and Iran, and has urged caution, determination, and restraint in the use of force. The volatile situations in Pakistan and Afghanistan also raise significant moral questions and require urgent attention if regional stability is to be enhanced
If only those pesky Jews would just settle with the Palestinian, radical Islam would be wiped out from the face of the earth. More liberal pap.
Cory loves taxes, perhaps we should tax RX Drug exports to fund this magical health care system, I sure comrade cory would love that right?
#241 yeah, not much consolation, I guess.
When Kennedy ran for POTUS in 1960, he had to reassure the country that he would not use his position to codified into law Catholic Doctrine. Yet, today’s Catholic Chruch is asking Catholic politicians to do just that. Boy how times have changed, for the worse.
1. If those without health insurance get treatment, then why in the world do any of you have health insurance???? Why aren’t you saving your money?
2. Anyone with intelligence above that of a three year old understands that universal healthcare is not “free”. We fully understand that we pay for it with taxes, as we should.
3. We pay about 60% per person what you do in healthcare costs, and yet we are healthier and live longer. Your system SUCKS. Thank goodness the Democrats are going to start fixing it for you.
We pay about 60% per person what you do in healthcare costs, and yet we are healthier and live longer.
How much do you pay in taxes for every gallon of gas? I don’t know how people figure what you pay for socialized care. But the fact is that every country that has socialized medicine pays overall more taxes than ud. Also, Americans have higher rates of car accidents, murders that are no reflection of the quality of our care but distort our mortality rate. Finally, it is our system that is developing the drugs and medical procedures used by the rest of the world. Once we are like everybody else, there will be no innovation. We will all be equally sick. Once again socialism will make sure that everybody is equally miserable.
1) Because their treatment sucks because they have to wait for it and only get emergency care. That being said, most of the uninsured can afford it and chose not to, whining desperately for help when their irresponsibility catches up with them.
2) No, people do not understand that it is not free. Most democrats support it because they believe it is someone else’s money they are taking to pay for their healthcare.
3) Controlled for other individual factors, America’s health results are better. Controlling for rates of obesity and other factors, America’s results are the best in the world. In addition for those in the middle class that are responsible and purchase health insurance, their care is timely and improves rapidly compared to the rest of the world.
I am not being for fatty freeloader’s healthcare. Tax me for this crap and I will revolt and I will make society pay the difference by working less hard or some other measure. You socialists are nothing more than thieves.
The point being, americans die more because too many overeat. This is not a problem nationalized healthcare wil lsolve.
If those without health insurance get treatment, then why in the world do any of you have health insurance????
For the same reason that people that live in countries with socialized medicine health insurance so that they can go to private clinic: We don’t want to spend time on a waiting room at the country hospital.
Cory
You keep referencing intelligence, yet you refuse to engage in intellectual discourse. You make claims, which are for the most part baseless, and wont answer direct questions. Instead you come back with “your system Sucks”. Yet you claim no one is intelligent.
I hope I didnt waste all those years in college for nothing. Im willing to discuss things with you rationally. So lets start.
First, why should you have to pay for universal healthcare with taxes. Thats mandating something. Where in our constitution does it mandate that taxes should be used for universal healthcare?
Second. You do get healthcare if you have a serious ailment or life-threatening disease. This bill only adds day to day health issues to that “free” bracket, and only for a percentage of the population that already benefit from free programs. For the rest, it only means higher premium, higher taxes, and a degraded level of care due to the increased burden put on the system and the reduced number of people (doctors) who will be available.
Can I ask you about the Liberty revoking provision of the bill which calls for incarceration if you dont purchase insurance?
#220 Cory, you simply are an idiot. Period.
Health Insurance is simply a way to cover the risk of contracting a very bad illness. To the extent where it has been turned into medical welfare by bad state intervention and turned into something its not meant to be is the problem. Also, cost shifting by government programs is the main issue with its costs.
The rational HC system is for you to pay your own bills and if you feel the need, add HC insurance to cover whatever risk you dont want to assume.
Anyone with the intellegence of a three year old knows that you pay much much more by building a state HC beaurcracy to filter your dollars thru before in get to a provider is dumb.
The only thing you have access to is a waiting list in socialist medicien unless you are politcally connected and can pull some strings. You pay 60% less because you allow your government to ration care – its that simple. You have people dying right now because they arent allowed access to MRI’s etc.
As far as what it costs, if its YOUR money that you are free to spend then WHO cares what we spend! Thats your right in this country as a free citizen. Up there, it is a crime to spend your money on the MOST important assest you have- your health!
Basically, you cede your right to make the MOST important decsions in your life to the state.
As you say, nothing is “Free” or unlimited in the real world.
So who do you want making the life and death decsions – you or some technocrat in Ottawa or DC?
To me, thats an easy ??? to answer….
Cory,
So you agree that we should send people to prison because they don’t want to or aren’t able to pruchase “approved” health insurance.
That IS what Obamacare does. You may be a Canadian not not realize it, but it is flatly unconstitutional to REQUIRE a US citizen to purchase a good or service as a condition of being a lawful citizens (this power is explicitly restricted to the states under the 10th amendment).
Everyone,
I told you so. The Dems know perfectly well that they are going to get completely massacred in 2010. They know it and thus consider this to be their best, last chance to pass the holy grail of “Progressivism”, i.e. Universal Healthcare. They know that no matter what political losses they take in 2010, if this can be passed the Dems have a majority in government forever as people get addicted to the govt teet. This is largely what happened in the UK. NHS is a lousy system, but it’s the third rail in UK politics and can’t be criticized much less touched….and it’s bankrupting the UK (and most of Europe).
-Polaris
If it passes the Senate, can this be repealed if we take back Congress?
Actually, Cory, you are wrong. It is not true that in Canada, if you are sick, you get treatment. Instead, if you are sick, you get put on a waiting list, and may get treatment after a wait. Your government has argued in court proceedings that access to a waiting list is all they are required to provide.
254 – Not really, unless you think by some magic we’re going to get 66% in the house and senate to overrule a presidential veto. Not happening while the messiah is in office. Technically though since most of this disaster doesn’t take full effect till 2013 there is some hope if Bambi doesn’t win re-election.
#254 Name me a single-solitary Govt Bureaucracy that EVER got defunded in congress once it was established?
If this abomination becomes law, then we are stuck with socialized medicine forever…and that’s exactly why the Dems are pushing it now because they KNOW that it’s now or never. The Dems know they are going to get slaughtered in 2010.
-Polaris
typo 67%.
test
I’ve posted twice now, and it won’t show up. Same thing happened to me a few times before, and eventually things show up retroactively.
It appears Wissing’s posting system needs as much help as your healthcare.
Polaris
The Democrats in Congress, especially those that constitute the far left of the party, realize that passing this will result in a single payer system. Which is what they want.
You know more than anyone that once this passes and is signed into law that it will lead to health insurance companies leaving the business and using their capital for other projects. This will leave only the government insurance “company” in business and segway directly to a single payer system as there will be nothing to stop it from happening.
And you are right. Once on the government dole, it will be impossible (short of a revolution) to take it away.
#220 Cory, you have a strange understanding of a “right” is…
Unless you believe in slavery, there is no “right” to health care!
You see, real humans have to decide to spend years of their lives becoming doctors, nurses, etc in the expectation that they will be able to earn a living for themselves…..
Then hospitals must be built….
Drugs invented….etc
All this happpens because people choose to do so based on that “evil” profit motive….
Its called a “free market” – customers/paitents get sick/hurt and then proviers treat them
So unless you propose to force people into the medical profession invoulutarily ala the USSR then there is no way force people to do all these things or do them well unless they are allowed to profit from their efforts….
Thats why to one degree or another, all socialist medical systems have doctor shortages and import them from third world countries as not a whole lot of people want to go to school for 10 years to become a government employee….
Also, next to no innovation takes place under third world medicine….
Please name any great contribution to medicine from the USSR or Cuba…
Finally, if HC is truly a “right” it should be available in unlimited quanitities and should not be restricted in anyway. True rights like speech, etc posses this quality….your medical care is rationed by the government so it cant be a “right”
The truth in the real world is that Health Care is a service. To the degree we treat it like one, the better outcomes will get in terms of quality and price. To the degree we accept the socialist premise of medicine then we will will get much higher costs and much less quanity/quality – that will mean many many more people die. This is not fitting in a free and justice society!
Lastly,
Thank you dumb Americans for voting Obama and the Dem majority in the House and Senate.
Read earlier post on REP Cao, he is in a D+25 district…..after it was assured of passing by D votes he just threw his yes vote to help his reelection chances….it was already over so this is smart politics…
DONT get on REP Cao as he will be an ally on other votes…..this was DONE DEAL from the D 218 by the time he voted….
We have cap n tax, etc coming up and he has stood with us on these other votes…
You turn on him and you will get another HARD CORE crook and statist like the bum William “fridge” Jefferson he replaced!
Per Malkin, guess what Cao got from Obama for his vote? A commitment! ROFL!!!!!! Good night everyone!
Republicans PUNKED
#266 A bill that is terrible got passed by a whopping two votes when the Dems have a what? 50+ seat majority and the GOP got punked?
No. There are simply too many Dems (esp liberal Dems) in congress that are completly tone-deaf to the US Electorate.
We’ll fix that in 2010.
In any event the chance this monstrosity passes the Senate in anything close to it’s present form is basically zero. It won’t even have enough votes to open debate on it much less close debate on it.
Reid already has Lieberman rock solid against this bill as it is written and there are more and not a single republican (not even Snowe) will vote for it.
I think the Dems are going to try to play games with reconcilliation after passing a “Vapour Bill” in the senate.
-Polaris
wylie, I hesitate to respond directly to you, because you are a ranter. You really are out there on the fringe.
But, this one is easy, so I’ll take a shot. Police officers are employed by government. So are firefighters. So are school teachers. So are soldiers. There is no reason doctors and nurses shouldn’t be either.
#220 Cory, in our afflulent, democractic and free country we have here we ALL have access to any treatment we need almost ON DEMAND!
You confuse payment methods like health insurance with medical care!
You have access to a waiting list and no more up there…
How to pay for it should really be up to the individual in a truly free and decent country!
#268 Cory, you are wrong at least about school teachers. School teachers are employed by either the school districts (if public) or by the schools themselves (if private). Also professors are employed by the institutions in question.
As for Police and Firefighters, they are employed by the local municipalities and not by an overarching Federal Agency (except the FBI but that is an explicit exception). These functions AND soldiers are all covered under the constitution as explict powers granted to the govt by the poeple in order to provide for the public defense (internal and external). HEALTH CARE IS NOT SUCH A RIGHT! Never has been and never should be.
Cory, please answer my question: Do you think it is proper to send people to jail for NOT purchasing a good or service? That IS what Obamacare does.
If Govt can tell you that you MUST buy insurance (to live in the US as a legal citizen or go to jail) then what ELSE can the govt FORCE you to buy or do?
Please TRY to answer the question honestly.
-Polaris
Cory
School teacher are employed by the local governments. Police officers are employed at the local level. etc etc etc.
School teacher do not need to go to school for eight years, followed by two years of residency. Firefights, police, soldiers, etc.
Doctors have a very high level of expertise, one which costs a great deal of money to acquire. Without any chance to recoup their investment, why the waste of time, energy, money and life experiences to become one.
Cory,
Consider the overall quality of govt services as opposed to private ones (in any sector of the economy). Now consider that you are putting your life in the hands of any doctor you see.
Do you really want to do that with a govt doctor?
Really?
-Polaris
Polaris
Ive asked him about the Liberty denying portion of this bill many times, but he has yet to answer. in fact he refuses to address any of the questions Ive raised, or asked him directly about. Ive been non-confrontational, I wish to engage him in an intelligent debate about the bill, and its subsequent affect on Americans. He doesnt respond.
#273 Cory doens’t know how to respond because it’s prima facie obvious that Obamacare takes away our individual rights guaranteed under the constitution.
-Polaris
#268 Cory, for being such an “easy” one boy to do blow it!
Soldiers and police officers are employed by the government simple due to the reason that this is cannot be done for a profit and this is the basic function of the state – to protect its citizens individual rights and freedoms from threats internally and externally.
Firefighters were at one time a private for profit function. In many many areas of this country they are volunteer and just as effective as government employed ones. Government firefighters is a realtively recent change and one not necessarily needed.
As for Doctors and nurses being government employees, that can be done if you want inferior people in the profession or too few people such as the shortages of doctors you have in Canada. Sorry, as much as you would like to deny reality, medical care is a market based service.
Just saying the government can employ someone or run something is meaningless. You can ask the government to make Ice Cream for example but will they do it well or better then a private for profit company? NO, why? Because it is a market based commodities….
Government does certain things well such as use force (police and military) but almost all market based things it does poorly and this has been proven time and time again….
Sorry if my ranting disturb you but your utterly silly and baseless rantings about the wonders of statism bothers me greatly too!
Do not panic yet. From NRO:
Mutiny in Scrutiny? [Jeffrey H. Anderson]
It was always clear that the real health-care battle would be in the Senate. But what would have been shocking eight months ago is to hear that it would take until November for the Democrats to pass a bill even in the House. It would have been even more shocking to have heard that, even after a full-court-press by the White House, the bill would pass by only five votes — meaning that if just three of the 435 members had changed their minds, it would have changed the bill’s fate. And it would have been shocking to have heard that 39 Democrats would jump ship.
The House bill has passed — barely and belatedly — and it is now dead. Nothing like it will ever pass the Senate. The question now is whether anything will, now that the voters have spoken in New Jersey and Virginia — and now that the exceedingly narrow margin in the House will likely invite even greater scrutiny of that which is being proposed.
Greater scrutiny will not help the Democrats’ efforts. In truth, their hopes for passage largely hinge on successfully hiding two plain facts from the voters: One, the House Republicans and the Congressional Budget Office have now shown that a bill costing $61 billion can lower Americans’ insurance premiums, while bills costing $1.7 trillion cannot (and instead would raise them substantially). Two, the Democrats’ plans would be paid for only if they follow through on plans to siphon hundreds of billions of dollars out of already-barely-solvent Medicare, and to do so just in time for the baby boomers’ retirement.
Given the magnitude of the challenge of continuing to hide these plain facts from an increasingly attentive citizenry, the Democratic health-care train has a very bumpy ride ahead — as it rolls into the chamber that the American Founders thought from the beginning would ultimately decide our fate: the Senate.
— Jeffrey H. Anderson is a senior fellow in health-care studies at the Pacific Research Institute and was the senior speechwriter for Secretary Mike Leavitt at the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services during Pres. George W. Bush’s second term.
Federal, Provincial, State, Munipal, District, Whatever. Your taxes pay for them, government employs them.
What the government SHOULD do is provide healthcare to all, and raise taxes to pay for it.
Mandating purchase of health insurance is a poor alternative. And no I don’t believe citizens should go to jail for not buying insurance – asset seizure would be my recommendation. But as your country is too backwards to accept universal healthcare, this is necessary. It would be like mandating that citizens educate their children, rather than providing a tax payer funded elementary school system.
All children should have a right to education, but some ways of providing it are better than others.
Polaris
Chances of this monstrosity being challenged in court? Your thoughts? I mean this is in direct conflict with our Liberties.
As I write I realize that any challenge will ultimately end up in the SC and that the decision relies on the health of the current five members who would rule against this.
Cory
So you back asset seizure for not purchasing health insurance.
So I have a question for you. What should the top tax bracket be, if youre for increasing taxes to pay for healthcare. At what point is it time to say enough, we can not tax success anymore. That is what you are doing, you realize that. Penalizing some for being more successful than others.
Do you realize that those that live in California are paying over 60% in tax to the government. That does not include the near 10% sales tax that some areas have. Can I ask you how can you justify this? How can this be considered fair?
#268 I am out there on the “frige” simply because I value my individual libery and freedom?
This now qualifies you as a “fringe ranter”?
As a practical matter, ScaryCare or any Socialist Medicine system costs much more, will cause you to die early and in more pain, and will result in you ceding the most basic choices in your life to unelected technocrats…..
If opposing this makes me “fringe” then so be it!
I dont want to be one of the “intellegent” people like you who have been conned by slick statist politicians into ceding your life, liberty, and prosperity to them in exchange for a false security and phoney utopia that will never happen….
I pity you as they have you tricked into thinking you are “enlighted” and a member of the elite ruling class who is dictating to the rest of the world how to live….
The cruel truth is that you are a useful idiot at best…..
I pray that some day you open your mind and get rid of your hate of your fellow man and trust them to lead their own lives as they see fit!
I’m for splitting the union.
Comment by bartman — November 7, 2009 @ 11:44 pm
That’s where we’re heading.
The highest tax bracket in California (state income tax) is 10.3%.
The highest federal tax bracket is 35%.
Those rates apply to the income in the highest bracket, not all income.
What are you talking about?
#277 Actually, its your country and the rest of the world that is backwards….
See, you advocate the most Regressive idea on the planet: centralized control by an elite few!
We had this thing in 1776 that came up with a new idea: the people can govern themselves!
As a practical matter, if you are paying gobs and gobs of your cash thru the several layers of government to get basic services or products that can be provided to all more effectively by a free market then by government then why are you doing this?
Why not pay directly for what you use and get a better return for your money?
This is what I’m talking about wylie, you are just flat out CRAZY.
We get FAR better return for our money through a government system than you do through a private one.
Cory,
So you DO think that Govt should have the right to seize your assets if you don’t buy what the govt thinks you should buy or do?
You first. Let’s pass a law that says those that made idiotic comments on message boards should forfeit their income for a year.
That should be right up your ally.
If you can’t see that THIS is what Obamacare does, then you, sir, are a complete foot.
Likewise if you trust a govt doctor with no competition (and no accountability) with your life, you are a fool…and soon to be a dead one.
-Polaris
#282 add in sales taxes, property taxes, hidden taxes on every product or service we buy due to the corporate taxes that are passed on to consumers then we are talking well over 40% to 70% for the average citizen….
Of course the socialist Wall Street rich like Soros and Corzine off-shore their capital gains income so dont pay this…
Cory..
After the change in the tax brackets next year income tax is 39.6%. Plus the absurd 10.3% California tax. There are cities that have city tax. Then you have 6.9% social security tax (on first 106k which Democrats want to raise to unlimited), then medicare tax.
Added all up and next year the to tax bracket will incur a 60% hit. Please dont try to tell me no, I just had to leave the state because of the overbearing taxes there. That doesnt even take into account a sales tax that hits near 10% in some parts of the state.
you people are so naive.obama and pelosi allow blue dogs to vote no against health bill.obama ,pelosi orchestrate.
“Whether we believe in our capacity for self-government or whether we abandon the American Revolution and confess that a little intellectual elite in a far-distant capital can plan our lives for us better than we can plan them ourselves.” -Ronald Reagan.
Get ready for part 2.
#284 That’s simply not true Cory. When health care prodecures are deregulated (see Lasik surgery which is not trivial surgery), costs go way down and quality goes way up.
Pick pretty much any sector of the economy and the private sector is both cheaper and more accessable (and of higher quality) than one controlled by govt. Some functions MUST be done by govt (namely the public defense).
Bottom line: Healthcare is NOT a universal civil rights. Basic human rights are NEGATIVE things, i.e. things that govt can no do to you. Basic human rights are NEVER positive things (things govt must do for you individually).
-Polaris
Cory given the numbers which clearly add up to 60% (=/- 1.5%) I ask you, is it fair to ask anyone to contribute 60% of their income to the pie. If so, how can you justify this? What right does the government have to penalize success in such a harsh manner?
“This is what I’m talking about wylie, you are just flat out CRAZY.”
—
Says the crazy man.
I don’t know why you guys bother.
#282 Cory, did you also know that at 35%, the US has one of the highest Corporate Tax rates in the world?
I doubt it.
-Polaris
#284 No you are a sucker. You get rationed care. We get unlimited care based on our dedire and ability to pay.
You hire a bunch of useless government employees for no reason.
In the UK, they have 1.9 million employed in the NHS and far less then half these people actually provide care!
This is value?
Again, I see the fact that we in America have the extra income available to spend on our own health care as a great strength of our system and not a weakness. Its also what we get for our money that counts too as its much better. Plus we have the freedom of choice.
I pity you as the statists have you very very brainwashed….
#289 HD nice quote.
#288 – If your reading the threads over the last weeks, few have been naive about it heather.
The Pelosi Bill Was Rammed Through on Saturday, But Sunday’s Coming
http://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=169376258434
We’ve got to hold on to hope, and we’ve got to fight hard because Congressional action tonight just put America on a path toward an unrecognizable country.
The same government leaders that got us into the mortgage business and the car business are now getting us into the health care business.
Despite Americans’ decisive message last Tuesday that they reject the troubling path this country has been taking, Speaker Pelosi has broken her own promises of transparency to ram a health “care” bill through the House of Representatives just before midnight. Why did she push the 2,000 page bill this weekend? Was she perhaps afraid to give her peers and the constituents for whom she works the chance to actually read this monstrous bill carefully, if at all? Was she concerned that Americans might really digest the details of a bill that the Wall Street Journal has called “the worst piece of post-New Deal legislation ever introduced”?
This out-of-control bureaucratic mess will be disastrous for our economy, our small businesses, and our personal liberty. It will slam businesses at a time when we are at double-digit unemployment rates – the highest we’ve seen in a quarter of a century. This massive new bureaucracy will cost us and our children money we don’t have. It will rob Americans of more of our freedom and further hamper the free market.
Make no mistake: we’re on course to have government commandeer one-sixth of our economy. The people who gave us Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac now want to run our health care. Think about that.
All of us who value the sanctity of life are grateful for the success of the pro-life majority in the House this evening in its battle against federal funding of abortion in this bill, but it’s ironic because we were promised that abortion wasn’t covered in the bill to begin with. Our healthy distrust of these government leaders made us look deeper into the bill because unfortunately we knew better than to trust what they were saying. The victory tonight to amend the bill and eliminate that federal funding for abortion was great – because abortion is not health care. Now we can only hope that Rep. Stupak’s amendment will hold in the final bill, though the Democratic leadership has already refused to promise that it won’t be scrapped later.
We had been told there were no “death panels” in the bill either. But look closely at the provision mandating bureaucratic panels that will be calling the shots regarding who will receive government health care.
Look closely at provisions addressing illegal aliens’ health care coverage too.
Those of us who love freedom and believe in open and transparent government can only be dismayed by midnight action on a Saturday. Speaker Pelosi’s promise that Americans would have 72 hours to read the final bill before the vote was just another one of the D.C. establishment’s too-common political ploys. It’s broken promises like this that turn people off to politics and leave them disillusioned about the future of their country.
But despite this late-night maneuvering, many of us were paying close attention tonight. We’ll keep paying close attention. We need to let our legislators in Washington know that they still represent us, and that the majority of Americans are not in favor of the “reform” they are pushing. After all, this is still a country “of the people, by the people, and for the people.” We will make our voices heard. It’s on to the Senate now. Our legislators can listen now, or they can hear us in 2010. It’s their choice.
- Sarah Palin
#288 I don’t know about anyone else, but I haven’t been naive about it (and neither has Wylie for one). In fact I was warning everyone else that the vote would take place and likely pass because Pelosi is in panic mode and knows it has to get passed now right away or never passed at all.
That said, this bill as it is goes nowhere in the Senate.
I expect Dem sheninigans with “reconciliation” with a senate vapour bill in order to bypass Cloture.
If the Dems do that, it’s armegedden since it means that no minority party has any power ever again in the senate….and the Dems won’t have a majority in the senate forever.
-Polaris
#292 True, when you have a zealot as brainwashed as Cory who is crying out for the elites to enslave and empoverish him as loudly as he does their is little hope for recovery….
#297
To Sarah Palin:
While I respect you, I don’t think you fully understand that the Democratics have made that choice. They know they will go down in flames in 2010 so they feel they don’t need to listen to the American people now and thus don’t care what was said on Tuesday.
-Polaris
#
#289 HD nice quote.
Comment by KnightHawk — November 8, 2009 @ 1:57 am
Wait til you see the follow-up!
It hasn’t even been written yet.
If this thing passes the Senate, then it won’t matter what happens in 2010. America will have changed for the worse. Thank you dumb Americans for voting for Obama and the dems.
#298 – Remember all the hoopla over the “nuclear option” back a few years ago, well pulling reconciliation shenanigans to the degree that would be required, is far more destructive and yet not much is being made of it, least not yet.
#302 Unfortunately I agree which is why this thing must never pass the senate NOR must the senate be allowed to pass a vapour bill to set up this so-called “reconcilliation”.
MAKE this P.O.S. pass the cloture test. That ought to be entaining given how the it passed with such flying bipartisan colors in the House.
-Polaris
#303 The key word is YET. It’s coming. Bank on it. It’s the only way that the Dems can bypass cloture.
As it is, this POS is DOA (even more than Cardcheck was) in the senate.
-Polaris
304 – Technically you’d have to effectively just shut down the senate, since any bill really could be changed in conference (I mean if rules are out the window and all) and I doubt Lieberman and others are on board for that.
I am watching a great show on the History channel about the Berlin Wall.
There is a really “intellegent” university professor talking about how “reasonable” it was for the East Germans were losing hundreds of thousands of their own citizens a year to the West. According to him this was rational to him that the communists would build the wall to entrap people as to let them go would make east germany “unviable”.
Gee, didnt the East German government provide EVERYTHING to include Universal HC? And it was all “equal” right? Why would they flee this paradise?
How quickly we forget….
But hey, I am “crazy” to think anything like individual rights and personal freedom matters….
#306 If the Dems can get 51 with armtwisting to go along with nuking all the rules, they’ll do it.
IMHO that’s going to be the next step. The dems are NOT going to let healthcare die in the Senate after working and waiting so long for it without using every round in the gun….and a few more they can scrounge up.
In addition for making Cloture a dead duck, we’ve GOT to keep the Senate from blowing up the reconciliation process.
-Polaris
#307 Yep. Cory would have LOVED it in East Germany.
-Polaris
#308 – Under normal circumstances they might, but this is not normal, urkel is too over-invested for them to let this stall without pulling out all the stops. The only question is will 10/11 dems reject the method, I can only think of about 5 or 6 that may not be down for blowing up the senate over this.
Knighthawk,
looks like you and i called it at 220 …
do we know the dems or what?
regarding the catholic church … yes, they are socialist. all people are equal in God’s eyes or so they say. it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to get to heaven
Polaris, They only need 50.
Biden.
plus … in case you have forgotten …
the catholic church runs some enormous amount of the hospitals and medical clinics in the usa. the percentage is way beyond what you might think, something like 20% maybe as hight as 30%.
they ALL give free care to the uninsured. every single one.
now … with the 220 votes … they just became profitable businesses.
obama just awarded the catholic church billions.
#310 If you read what I posted, it sounds like we completely agree. There is NO WAY that Obama is going to stand for this to get stalled in the senate no matter what Reid says (and Reid can read the Nevada polls as well as we can…he’s likely out of a job in 2010 and he knows it).
That’s why I think Obama is going to press and press hard for the Senate to blow up the reconcilliation process.
There is nothing that Obama can offer or threaten Lieberman with to change his mind about any bill with a public option (let along Pelosi’s ‘little’ monstrosity). That is a Dem caucus vote that is no and there is nothing Obama can do or threaten to do to change it.
That’s enough right there to deny the bill cloture.
I know it; Obama knows it too. Watch out for the nuclear option. It’s coming.
-Polaris
We do, thought to be honest I was thinking it would be 220 D’s not 219D +1R, I know cao was pull the weak arse hey it passed anyway so I’ll vote for it but I’m still po’d at him about it.
#313 Biden makes 51 technically. However, it reinforces my point.
-Polaris
313 – Bingo
#308 Actually, all the D have to do is drop the Government Option and wala! No filibuster….thats the only solid basis that D Senators have announced against…
obamacare passes the senate easily if it happens soon.
lieberman is your only hope.
and he was the dems vp candidate just 10 years ago … i think you are screwed.
#314 Lisab, thanks for pointing that out, that had not occurred to me, least not directly. hmm.
#319 That’s true, but the bill can’t pass the house without the government option. There are very few times when I could praise and bless the idiot Kossacks in congress, but this is one of them.
-Polaris
“i think you are screwed.”
:
—
Let me fix that for you
I think we’re all screwed.
Now the D’s are going to field a candidate and go for Cao’s jugular.
If the Dems do end up using reconciliation, you can thank the 1996 Republican Senate majority for making it easier for them.
“Until 1996, reconciliation was limited to deficit reduction, but in 1996 the Senate’s Republican majority adopted a precedent to apply reconciliation to any legislation affecting the budget, even legislation that would increase the deficit”
Dauster, Bill. “The Day the Senate Died: Budget Measure Weakens Minority.” Roll Call, 30 May 1996, 5, reprinted in Congressional Record (12 June 1996), vol. 142, S6135-36.
Polaris I think WEC is saying in the senate, drop the government option, pass it, put it back in during conference, and then present it again only needing 50 + Biden.
#322 Well maybe not so fast assuming the House wont pass a bill without a governmet option. It maybe as simple as add previous blue dog NOs to Yes for each so-called “regressive” who switches to NO.
#320 I don’t think so Lisab. Sheninigans will have to be pulled such as the nuclear-reconsilliation option.
Lieberman made his opposition to anything with the govt option plain and it’s not just Lieberman. I point to him because Obama has nothing he can offer or threaten him with.
This is card-check redux. Pelosi’s bill as written is DOA in the senate and I think everyoen (including Obama) knows it.
If enough changes are made to pass cloture in the senate, it can’t pass the house thanks to the idiot Kossacks.
Thus the only “solution” I see for the Dems is the nuclear option and I see it coming….very soon.
-Polaris
324 – Ah they probably would anyway.
#325 Uh, thanks for the history lesson…
#326 Yes, this would be the nuclear option since such a change would bge in violation of senate rules.
Look for the Dems to do just this. Pass a bill that makes cloture and “reconcile” Pelosi’s monstrosity in on “reconcilation” that would not.
Best way to prevent this? Pass no bill at all.
-Polaris
I love me some good snark.
#327 Not enough Blue-Dogs to make up for both zero (or nearly zero) GOP votes AND no liberal Dem votes.
-Polaris
According the hisroy channel professor geek, it has “difficult” to get the east german guards to gun down their own people….
To the statist mind, this was a “problem”
FYI: Kratolvi voted against the Stupak amendment. Isn’t that district in Maryland fairly socially conservative (even if it isn’t, something like the Stupak amendment is likely going to see 70% support anywhere).
Owens voted against the Stupak amendment after touting his pro-life creds throughout the campaign. These guys are real shucksters.
#334 That’s true. The guards were under the impression that those tryig to flee were actual human beings.
Can’t have that!
Cory would have loved it in the old DDR.
-Polaris
331 – Yup. But in all seriousness couldn’t they pull that chit with just about any bill? I mean say harry puts up a bill for aid to the families of ft. hood, house does the same, both pass goto conference, and they tack on the entire health care bill onto the end of it. Ballsy but technically possible no?
#333 Well I think alot of liberal regressive will still vote for it as its all a huge takeover and they know it….
The smart ones knows it 90% of what they dream of….they will wait for the rest!
Knighthawk,
the catholic church cares for something like 25% of all aids patients.
these people just went from charity cases to
profit centers
Guys,
Actually I wish the entire GOP had voted against the Stupak amendment.
Why? It would have left the pro-abortion language in the final bill and forced a much more difficult do or die bill.
Don’t let your morals get in the way of doing what’s right. The GOP should have voted against the amendment because voting it down would have been the best chance to kill the bill then and there.
-Polaris
Polaris,
Any guesses on Kratolvi?
#337 Under Senate rules and regulations they aren’t supposed to do that, but YES technically they can with 51 votes, and that’s part of what I mean by the reconcilliation “nuclear option”
I fully expect the Dems to pull almost exactly this sort of dirty trick.
-Polaris
#341 I am guessing that he voted against it for the same reason that I would have voted against the amendment. I would vote against any amendment proposed that would make Pelosi’s POS bill easier to pass (swallow). I wish more GOP representatives realized this.
-Polaris
Polaris,
as has been mentioned
they could vote to end debate and then vote against the bill
or
take the public option out … and then put it back in after the vote.
however, lieberman is a problem, and if the vote is delayed, obama could be very unpopular the way his polls are going.
reid has to do it soon.
#336 Yes, we cant allow those people to escape to some place were they can possibly be allowed to make their own choices or to benefit form their own efforts!
Why we must imprison them in the worker’s paradise “for their own good”……even shot them for their own good too!
I notice that was one of Cory’s big lines – that the HC scam would “benefit even you right wingers”…..sounds like very similar thinking eh?
Gee boss, why are you so good to me lol
#340 I was saying that earlier today – Block and tackle, block and tackle…throw a monkey wench in. Some were saying then the gop would have problems a home, but what’s the big deal, you explain what was up to those that don’t know, and if the thing failed over it you don’t really have a problem anyway. Not to mention the D’s have not committed to keeping it in anyway so wtf is the point.
#344 Reid is also a problem, Lisab. Reid has made it very clear that he doesn’t want to touch this POS until next year at the soonest.
Why? He can read his hometown polls as well as we can.
-Polaris
Walt Minnick voted against the Stupak amendment as well.
Polaris, if that’s his reasoning, he should release a press release right now stating that as his reason or else he’s just signing away his seat.
#346 Yeah I know. Sometimes I wonder if the Congressional Republicans are playing checkers while the Dems are playing chess.
Sheesh.
I also wish the GOP had forced the leadership to read the bill out loud in toto. This is their right and it could have been done. Again delay.
That’s what hope the senate days. Dither and delay becuase the longer it takes, the weaker and weaker the Dem’s position on this bill becomes.
-Polaris
#348 I don’t know that’s his reasoning but it would be mine, and I would be saying this publically to anyone that would listen. Basically I’d say, “I’ll do anything I can to help kill this bill including voting against amendments I might otherwise agree with. I’m sorry it wasn’t enough.”
-Polaris
#346 You and Polaris are correct – the GOP should have voted as a bloc against the Stupak amendment or voted present….
This was the opportunity to kill it off today and they blew it…
reid may have to be bought off … he is just trying to raise his price.
ambassador to tahiti and our new multi-billion dollar embassy there i imagine.
#349 Or worse, they may be in collusion on this as the HC Insurance lobby is still on track to get millions of forced customers if this passes….they only dont like the public option…
Remeber that Rahm promised this will be done by Thanksgiving – looking plausible now eh?
#352 That depends on if Reid believes that he can retain his seat.
I think that Reid has a big enough ego and has been (until he was Pres-ProTem of the senate) enough of a “moderate” that he thinks he can pull it off IF (and only IF) he can somehow extract himself from this healthcare mess.
Mind you, if it were up to him, he’d vote for this monstrosity in a heartbeat, but Reid unlike Pelosi IMHO both wants his job AND thinks he can keep it in 2010.
If Reid thinks he can keep his job by tanking healthcare, he will. Reid IS a typical politico in that respect (unlike Pelosi whose seat is in zero danger and Obama who is an idealogue).
-Polaris
Now the DDR guards are firing at children tryiing to escape….
This is your socialist paradise!
351 – Big time.
352 – Looking at NV polling, it’s not bad deal.
#353 It seems a lot more possible that this Turkey will make it in time for Turkey day than I thought a few days ago, but I was certain that Pelosi would go for broke. I am simply suprised that she got lucky enough to get the votes….and she WOULDN’T HAVE if the GOP handn’t of helped her by bungling the Stupak amendment.
-Polaris
i agree reid likes his job,
but what if they give him a better job?
granted it would have to be huge, but i think he knows he will likely lose and if he does not force the bill he can kiss any job after the election goodbye.
in the old days they would have made him a judge, but i think he is white iirc.
#358 Lisab,
That depends. It depends on how likely Reid feels he can keep his job if he delays (and thus tanks) Healthcare.
Right now the polling while bad for him, isn’t hopeless…not by a longshot.
They (Pelosi and Obama) would either have to convince Reid it’s hopeless or give him a REAL nice goldend parachute….
I think that Lieberman and Reid (for different reasons) are the two most important wildcards and we should have a better idea how they turn out in the next week (since Obama will push for this to go rapidly….in that I agree).
-Polaris
“give him a REAL nice goldend parachute….”
they will, but he will want something that can last beyond 2012.
#360 It will have to be something that’s better than his political career in the Senate. I can not think of anything they can offer him that’s THAT valuable. That’s assuming that Reid thinks he can win in 2010 (reality notwithstanding) if he delays/tanks the vote.
Colour me skeptical on that. We’ll soon see because I don’t see Obama letting much time go to waste on this (because he can’t….he knows the thing is political poison).
-Polaris
Still if your harry, and you already have the senate retirement package, and several millions in assets why not give up the stress and bullshit, spend a couple years in tahiti.
Unless he’s just that addicted to the power it’s not a bad deal.
you guys realize that now medical marijuana is not only legal
but free
to all obama supporters
you guys are so screwed
#360 – Hey I hear ACORN is looking for new management, how about heading up SEIU or any number of other front organizations.
#363 – How is it free lisab?
Lisa
Please tell me your joking right?
#362 Unless he’s just that addicted to the power…
That’s exactly what I think about Reid.
-Polarid
#357 In retrospect, I am not at all surprised she got her 218 votes. There majority was so large as they could cover many many defections.
Plus, if there was no accountability to be had for some D in 10, every damm one of them would have voted for it!
I give no credence to the whole “blue dog” sham. If you think that government intervention is great, well thats who you are.
Putting on some kind of show for the folks back home about being conservative is just a ploy to get elected….
All 258 of the D were FOR it….it was just a question of working out the proper cover for the vunerable ones….
“How is it free lisab?” Knighthawk
doc … doc … i am a poor student with nothing but public health care
and
glaucoma …
give me a prescription …
you know you guys should not deny people without insurance
high quality cannabis.
you reps are sooooooooo cruel.
Wylie,
I see your point, but I think that had the GOP temporality allied itself with the House Speaker and KILLED the Stupak amendement, then the bill would have gone down in flaming wreckage because the vunerable Dems that had already made a stink about the abortion issue in the bill would have had zero political cover.
The GOP nay votes would. They simply say flat out that they were doing everything possible to kill the bill.
Remember, the name of the game is:
KILL BILL
-Polaris
P.S. It’s also a pretty good movie.
369 – Ah I see.
We’re not there yet, besides that’s one of the first things that would not be covered when care is rationed.
#370 – They can move to ME,CA,CO,AK,RI and grow their own, no need to pay for it as long as they have the script and have registered. Least of our problems though.
371 – Either they didn’t consider it, or were just too paranoid about it back home, no spines in my opinion.
#374 Exactly my point when I say that too often it seems like the GOP congressmen play checkers to the Dem’s chess of late.
-Polaris
Per DDR escapee:
“Freedom is the most important thing a person has. Life is nothing without it and you do anything to gain it if you do not have it. People in free societies do not understand this because they have never lived under a system that denies it.”
I guess with all the people crying out for socialist medicine and a one-party state we will soon find out!
Harry Reid is trying to pave the way for his son to run as well. He is also trying to look out for the fruit of his loins.
And lisab-what’s w all the “you guys” shibibble. What did you do, move to Canada?
#377 Harry Reid is trying to pave the way for his son to run as well. He is also trying to look out for the fruit of his loins
Absolutely and if Reid gets blown out in 2010 then the stink of it will cling to not only him but his son for years and perhaps forever….blighting any chance of his son’s chances in politics.
This is why I think Reid has been so cagey about healthcare in the seneate (voting against cloture more than once to keep it alive when it was clear that the votes for cloture weren’t there).
-Polaris
“And lisab-what’s w all the “you guys” shibibble. What did you do, move to Canada?”
i am a government employee … and have tenure (teacher) …
#371 Yep, makes me wonder if they are stupid, corrupt or totally sure that this is going nowhere in the Senate….
Because they COULD likely have killed it off today….
Maybe it is a high risk game of chicken – get house memebers to vote yes on another (hopefully) nowhere bill like cap n tax to make them expsoed for 10
This seems REAL high risk unless you are sure about the Senate killing it off…
What makes me suspicious is if the GOP leadership thinks like our friend Chek on here – basically, let it pass so you have an election 10 talking point…..I have heard the “its not the end of the world” line too much from establishment GOP types lately….makes me wonder if they are ok with selling us out for short term political gain…..
Sounds pretty plausible after today’s events….but hey, what do you think? After all, I am “crazy” lol
Here is a good article that address the GOP strange attitude toward the Stupak amendment:
http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2009/11/024907.php
As pfredicted the blue dogs are lap dogs.
Like foo’s gold in nj.
It stupid to let it pass for an election talking point or hope that the Court will stop it. I do not see Rino Kennedy or Sotohatewhtiye stopping it.
Knighthawk,
grow their own?
are you saying that you would deny the most helpless in our society
medicine?
#380 Yeah I read that too. Too mainly establishment republicans are treating the Stupak amendment as “good news” and that we have to worry about the courts overturning it.
FALSE! The Stupak amendment was nothing more than a naked bait-and-switch to allow pro-life (or those with pro-life districts) to be able to vote for the bill!!!
If the GOP votes the Stupak amendment down as they should have, then this bill becomes unpalatable to those that backed the amendment.
KILL BILL!!!
Don’t let your morals get in the way of doing what’s right.
-Polaris
Given the apparent anti Catholic bias at this blog, I am done with it.
Good day.
I think starting tomorrow, the reality of this vote will begin to sink in to the talking heads on all the Sunday shows. Certain folks we do not expect to begin speaking out against it will start to voice their opposition. Have I smoked too much crack?
you just noticed this blog is biased against catholics … you never read chekote’s posts ?
#386 I think you’re smoking something illegal at any rate! All I see happening tomorrow is a bunch of talking heads crowing about a gutsy, difficult, and defining political victory by Pelosi (which it was btw) and how the senate will be under great pressure to pass it in the next week or so.
-Polaris
#382 That’s another good point, maybe certain somebody’s have already have gotten a pretty good idea what Mr Kennedy, Roberts, Thomas, and Alito feel about this….
Advance notice their thoughts might be just as good as a Senate Filibuster lol
Tina,
I was raised a catholic, and I don’t think I’ve been anti-Catholic. I think the Stupak amendment was a stupid thing for the GOP to back, however.
-Polaris
Lisab. I do not read ???
I was surprised at others, who I will not name.
I am done here.1
383. They can grow their own ‘medicine’ in the case your raised, believe me it’s not that complicated.
If it doesn’t take effect until 2013, could we win both houses, the presidency, and then snuff it out?
Polaris,
i don’t think she was referring to you. read the posts above.
#388 Dont forget the Dear Leader – he will be hailed for his “gutsy” and inspiring pep talk up at Capital Hill….
It will be said that Obama’s “leadership” put this over the top!
Bank on it!
Polaris, my comment was not directed at you.
Tina,
i know you have read ??? posts before.
i am just surprised that you are surprised at the anti-catholic biases on this blog.
it has been anti-catholic for a very long time
in retrospect, i guess you never really got involved in those discussions.
Lisab,
Oh…..yeah I can see Tina’s point.
#393 I think you really have taken a bit too big a hit of that wacky-week there. Can you think of ANY major Govt Bureaucracy that’s even been defunded and disestablished once it’s been established?
I couldn’t think of any either.
-Polaris
“anti Catholic”
—
?
Raised catholic as well, though I have no real use for religion but I keep it to myself mostly, to each their own.
Tne fault of this bill does not lie with the Catholics/or the Catholic Church. Rather, the fault lies with 219 Marxists and 1 Rino.
The same bill will now likely pass the Senate. You can not fight Puglosi unless you get in the gutter with her. However, the Rs do not have fighters, they have appearsers/deal makers/compromisers.
#393 Sure. And I will invent a cold fusion reactor in my basement using left over potato salad. I am also going to invent an hyperspace warp drive for interplanetary travel lol
Both are equally likely as ever removing this once passed.
395 – “leadership” aka thuggery.
Lisab, the comments came from folks, who I assumed were on my side. However, there remarks are completely ridiculous. Lets go through the list of the religion of the 219 members that voted yes. Most are likely Protestant. Therefore, can I conclude that the Protestant Church/Churches “support this bill.”
Knighthawk,
i was not referring to you.
however, catholics are disliked by
dems who want abortion
and
by many protestants too who are reps,
sooooooooo you kind of get it from both sides.
393 – Some provision as I recall (who knows what made it into the final bill), do take effect before then but in theory it’s possible. But so then again so is living on mars or the moon.
And those hoping to win a victory in 2010, 2012, or score a political ppint, are missing the bigger point, we will be less free with the passage of this bill. It will be the first time in the history of the country that we are required to purchase a product (Fed. Government.).
Tina
I hope you dont leave. Ive only recently come back and look forward to your posts. They are very informative.
I disagree, this version of the bill has absolutely zero chance of passing the Senate. I do think that they will put everything back in that they will need to strip out in order to get it to pass cloture back in during reconciliation and we will have a program that will guarantee permanent Democratic majorities for at least a generation.
“Lisab, the comments came from folks, who I assumed were on my side.”
not regarding religion they are not. just your politics.
in fairness to them — in THIS case, the catholic church is for the public option.
however, the posters you mean would be against the catholic church anyway.
#401 I think not (likely to pass the Senate) and certainly not in it’s current form unless:
1. Lieberman changes his position (and there is nothing that Obama can offer or threaten him with to do so….and advantage of being a Dem caucasing independant)
2. Reid puts the bill on the fast track and takes political risks to get this monstrosity passed. If he does, he goes down big in 2010 (and his poll numbers in NV right now are not good). However, Reid probably thinks he can win in NV othewise since he does have the reputation at least of being “moderate”. We’ll see.
3. The senate finds enough votes to impose the ‘nuclear option’ and chance the senate rules either about cloture OR about reconcilliation to force the bill to be passed without a proper cloture vote.
Personally, I think that Reid tries to stall knowing that the problem (and bill) will “go away” without him having to vote against it (or for it) because it’s politically toxic and Reid knows it. Whether or not Obama lets him get away with that is another matter….
-Polaris
I’m Catholic. I was an alter boy, never got banged by a priest, got smacked by Sister Elaine for saying that diagramming sentences was ridiculous(yes she slapped me in front of the entire class) I sit, kneel, stand, pass the pot, even farted once in church, but for the life of me, I can not understand why the Catholic Church sticks their nose in politics and supports such an atrocity on our dwindling freedom.
And if the abortion bs is in a final bill, lisab, the Catholic Church will close their hospitals.
reid would have to be a fool to go down
surely he can get an appointment to tahiti
obama cannot force him to bring health care up for a vote
he will have to bribe him
Lisab, I stopped reading ??? since she tried attacking me for defending MD. This happened while you had left – perhaps you lurked but you did not post ((Its good seing you back here from time to time btw).
#411 Um, the RCC is notorious for sticking it’s nose in politics and has been for a long time around the world. I don’t say that to be “anti-Catholic” but merely as a simple statement of fact.
-Polaris
Of course, the leftist on the History channel are crediting “Gorby” for bringing down the wall!
Talk about socialist bias!
“I can not understand why the Catholic Church sticks their nose in politics and supports such an atrocity on our dwindling freedom.”
you cannot understand why the catholic church, an international organization not a usa organiztion, would be in favor of more money being spent on the poor?
and no, they will only close their hospitals if they are FORCED to give abortions, not if the bill allows federal funding of abortions
Its ridiculous for those posters to single out the Catholic Church. Their involvement/support appeared to be in name only. As you know I do not support this bill – but do share that faith (I do not publicize it here since as a libert. conservative – its nobody’s business). The arguments made by some posters that I respected are very weak.
#412 True. Reid will have to be bribed, but I can not imagine a bribe big enough.
It’s not about money for Reid. It’s all about power not just for himself but for his son as well.
If Reid gets covered in fecal matter during the 2010 elections (which is guaranteed if he forces this monstrosity through…look at the NV polls if you doubt this!), then the stink of it will cling to him and his son forever.
How does Obama offer enough to Reid to make up for that? Colour me skeptical.
-Polaris
Anyway, I am not optimistic about stopping this bill in the Senate. Our freedoms are being taken away from us.
411 – Similar experience, only when she hit me I hit back – hard, then got expelled, though not actually for that incident. Good times at Greenwich Catholic.
i have not been lurking, i have come back from time to time when Tim V asked me to for something interesting.
i came back tonight because rightpundits is wallowing in the muslim shooting crap this weekend
you hit a nun?
buy lots of sunblock before you die
#419 I’m not terribly optimistic either. I AM optimistic about it being stopped conventionally in the senate. This is card-check on steroids and just as DOA as that was.
However, Healthcare is the crownjewel of the Progressives and has been for more than a century. Obama will stop at nothing to get it passed…including trashing all the senate rules.
-Polaris
I of course hope to be wrong. I have cooled down a bit from reading the posts. I am also going on 4 hours of sleep, no doubt very tired from work. So, I will likely be back here unlesss thqt crap reappers.
“How does Obama offer enough to Reid to make up for that?”
http://www.1stclasswallpapers.com/holiday_and_travel-bora-bora_island,_tahiti,_french_polynesia_wallpaper.html
#419 I am with you. Rational pessimism. Me think the fix is in….
Obamacare for all coming to ya soon!
Yes, I know that you are not lurking, I was just mentioning thqt ??? had attacked me (you happened to just leave here). Thus, I do not reply to ??? – interesting though she reponds to me.
415 – Well so did Bush Sr. though not to a great extent in greta’s latest interview with him about it.
http://www.foxnews.com/video2/video08.html?maven_referralObject=11244315&maven_referralPlaylistId=&sRevUrl=http://www.foxnews.com/ontherecord/index.html
I am skeptical that we can stop it until we stop it. Its kind of like supporting the R candidate in NJ when the R candidate has lost major races since the early 1990s.
the women of french polynesia are not exactly … um … puritans either.
one young peace corps volunteer i knew got propositioned by a 13 year old, who came into his hut wearing a smile.
fortunately he was gay or he might have had a problem. well more problems. he was so traumatized by this nakedgirl they sent him to hawaii for evaluation … i was their because i got mugged and the mugger knocked my tooth loose, so i had to get a tooth splint and a new crown.
Lisab-according to unnamed sources, Right Pundits is actually a leftist cult mascarading as a conservative thinktank. Apparently, George Soros works the gears over there. I can’t confirm, but it sure would be nice to have my favorite teacher back over here. I sure could use some discipline every now and then.
tina,
actually, truth be told mccain has paid me about $1,000+ to post at rightpundits.
i do not even write for them.
i guess he is making a lot of money these days.
#425 Nice scenery and eyecandy. Not much power. Ask HRC if she has the power as Sec State that she thought she would have.
Sec Rice was a powerful women who was central to the Bush Administration (prob second in power only to Cheney).
HRC? She attends seminars in the Congo to make the Obama admininstration look good while having Kerry be his real foreign policy point man. I wonder what Hillary’s job satisfaction is right about now?
More to the point, do you think that Reid hasn’t noticed what he did to Hillary? I think he has.
-Polaris
#422 – Yup, she hit me first, Sister Mary Francis, real beotch. I don’t play games with people that hit me male or female, especially not at age ~12. Don’t believe in hell really, but I’ll take the advice about sunblock none the less.
425 – A very calming picture.
Major Nidal Malik Hasan worshipped at a mosque led by a radical imam said to be a “spiritual adviser” to three of the hijackers who attacked America on Sept 11, 2001.
Hasan’s eyes “lit up” when he mentioned his deep respect for al-Awlaki’s teachings, according to a fellow Muslim officer at the Fort Hood base in Texas, the scene of Thursday’s horrific shooting spree.
Hasan, the sole suspect in the massacre of 13 fellow US soldiers in Texas, attended the controversial Dar al-Hijrah mosque in Great Falls, Virginia, in 2001 at the same time as two of the September 11 terrorists, The Sunday Telegraph has learnt. His mother’s funeral was held there in May that year.
The preacher at the time was Anwar al-Awlaki, an American-born Yemeni scholar who was banned from addressing a meeting in London by video link in August because he is accused of supporting attacks on British troops and backing terrorist organisations.
From nro
#428 Yeah, I saw that too. I wanted to puke. The fact is that Reagan pushed them to the brink. “Gorby” only materialized as a result of all the pressure being put on the commies by the gipper…..
Basically, “gorby” was a last ditch effort by the commies to keep an iron grip on their victims by getting us to lay off on them and attempting to “reform” the turd of socialism…..
A “gorby” type character was always going to turn up once Reagan had them on the ropes….
Of course “gorby” is praised now as the socialist are still at it in this country and western eurpoe today…..basically Obama and the rest think socialism simply hasnt been tried by the right people (like themselves)…..they simply can discredit the idea of socialism
#436 I read that.
Can we come to conclusions yet?
-Polaris
#433 – He’s making it so that even if she leaves she can’t run against him as being a successful or even notable sec of state. She’s been neutered, and it was of her own making. Man did she get played, I’m waiting for her to stab him in the back, hard.
436 – As you said… more would come out.
But let’s not jump to any conclusions!
Def. a one man sleeper cell, or possibly more than one man sleeper cell.
But lets not Rush to judgment here.
Lets also give a shout out to Piglosi
/sarc
“More to the point, do you think that Reid hasn’t noticed what he did to Hillary? I think he has.”
oh i am sure he has, which is why he will not take many positions that otherwise he might consider.
ambassador has many benefits … not much power on policy … but absolute power within the country to boss people around. it is a job for life if he wants it.
sec. of state is not.
WEC – Actually though he gave most the credit to the German government, though like I said he did give a nod to gorby, found it interesting he didn’t mention his predecessor during the aired interview.
I predict that the next stories will be along the lines of who helped hasan inside.
Oops, did I let another cat out of the bag???
#439 If HRC is plotting revenge, she better put down the pint of Ben n Jerry’s and get at it!
Ole gal is getting fat….you see her in the Congo?
Straight up lard ass lol
Night.
I wish everyone cared about America like we do. This has been a nightmare. Good night peeps. Hope I didn’t offend anyone.
#443 Actually, I cant really ever remember Bush Sr saying good things about Reagan in public. Ever, really…..
#442 – That job could easily expire with the change of administrations, that’s not exactly a post that would not be desirable, not to mention the next administration isn’t going to want to continue the gift, so it’s either a 2-3 year or maybe 6-7 year job assuming captain BS buys another election.
#440 you guys! … sometimes i wonder what country you live in.
do you guys remember the scene in schindler’s list where the ghetto in krakow is being cleared and the germans are shooting most of the Jews? there is one scene where a little boy working for the germans saves a Jewish woman and her daughter because he knows them. he lies to the german soldiers and tells them he has checked and no Jews are in the area.
a teacher at my college where i am getting my masters, seriously compared that scene to a usa soldier setting an ambush for the taliban.
she asked if the soldier would be justified in letting the taliban go, just as the boy let the Jewish woman and her daughter escape.
I gotta go too….I am begining to sober up….I begin drinking heavily once GGGGGGERRRRALLLLDOOOO begin his gloating….he is a scumball
#442 it is a job for life if he wants it.
Actually it’s not. Ambassadors typically are not very important and not very powerful. They are political sinecures to pay off important ppeople with a job that’s as useless as legs on a snake, but prestigous enough that few notice. The REAL work is done almost always by the Deputy Ambassador who is usually a State Department buraeucrat of longstandig. THAT (Deputy Ambassador) is a job you cvan keep almost forever (regardless of politics) and really is powerful.
Ambassador? He (or she) serves strictly at the pleasure of the president and is usually kicked out within weeks after a new president is appointed.
-Polaris
#448 No suprise there. GHWB thought Reagan was an idiot and barely hid it even during the 8 years that Reagan was president.
Bush I and Reagan did NOT like each other.
-Polaris
444 – meow! meow! meow!
Nite Sir Albert. 4:30am here, I ought to hit the hey soon as well, I’m sure tomorrow will bring more bad news.
I’m trying to think of what’s the best way for Hillary to stab him in the back? Resign over something say in early october of 2012 and endorse the GOP candidate if it looks close? That would surely sting but doesn’t strike as something she might do.
“Ambassadors typically are not very important and not very powerful. ”
they are only important in the country, where they are very powerful. not on matters of usa policy, but on matters of all usa government employees in the country.
however, it is almost inconceivable that a republican president would kick out a politically appointed ambassador. both parties appoint ambassadors to people they want to pay off.
253 – Nope, but oddly they weren’t a bad team. I like Bush Sr. (the man, not the politician)
Hugh,
You know more about the catholic church than i do, so i won’t argue with you about how liberal or conservative it is.
#454 I think HRC will “resign in protest” over the next stupid thing that Obama does right after the 2010 disaster (and it will be a Dem disaster). Not to worry, it won’t take long for Obama to do something stupid enough to give HRC enough political cover to resign.
Whether that then translates into an endorsement, a primary run, or even a cross-ticket endorsement is difficult to say (too early)
-Polaris
Who should leave fox first, jerkraldo or shep?
—
As bad as shep is at times, I vote jerkraldo.
the thing about bush — both jr and senior is — they were not the best politicians.
the funny thing is that jeb bush probably would have been very good, but his brother screwed it up.
#450 Disturbing to think that person is a teacher, then again it disturbs me that my own sister was ever allowed to touch young minds and she’s not nearly as bad as that.
Tim V,
the catholic church is not “liberal” per se, it is actually conservative in many ways.
however, does it prefer that money be taken from the rich and given to the poor?
oh yeah … as long as it is not the vatican’s treasures it does.
#455 they are only important in the country, where they are very powerful. not on matters of usa policy, but on matters of all usa government employees in the country.
I don’t know which ambassadors you are talking about, but that’s very rare. USUALLY an abassador can (and is expected) to have all the intelligene and drive of a sea-slug. It’s the state department bureaucrats headed by the deputy ambassador that almost always had the actual power you mention. There are exceptions, but they are RARE exceptions usually for very important countries whose credentials are examined closely in the senate and aren’t purely politically motivated.
however, it is almost inconceivable that a republican president would kick out a politically appointed ambassador. both parties appoint ambassadors to people they want to pay off.
Actually it’s almost inconceivable that a purely political ambassador would NOT be instantly removed by a new administration. That would be one more sinecure for the new POTUS to pay off another donor.
-Polaris
460 – Probably, baby bro could still be FL senator, just not in 2010.
Polaris is correct about the ambassadors they are usually bounced within months of a new administration, if fact I think it’s custom if I recall for them all to offer up resignations upon a change in administrations, effective when a replacement is found.
“Disturbing to think that person is a teacher”
Knighthawk,
remember that in i would say 30% or more of the country …
you are the enemy, not the taliban.
I know, and they wonder why I want to cling to my guns and ammo.
#465 Yep, and in few RARE cases the new administration offers to keep the current ambassador in place, but that’s always when dealing with an important (and sensitive) country and the ambassador in question was given the post for his skill (rather than pure politics) and a change at the time would have serious reprocussions.
Those are RARE cases.
-Polaris
“USUALLY an abassador can (and is expected) to have all the intelligene and drive of a sea-slug”
yes … absolutely true
but their word is law in-country.
actually i do have one good story about an ambassador. in the country i was serving, the embassy showed movies to usa citizens twice a week for $0.50 or so. the peace corps asked to ban volunteers from the embassy. the ambassador without missing a beat, and in public, told the peace corps director that ANY usa citizen was allowed on embassy grounds at any time
and no government employee was going to change that!!!
#468 – Yup… or where nobody else wants to take the job, though I imagine there are only a hand full or two of those cause even in most hell holes it’s not a bad gig.
385- Tina, please stay. you are one of the most respected and influencial members here.
#469 What the ambassador said IS universal US policy. Show your passport and you are allowed on embassy grounds, period.
You had better believe that he would never have said any such thing unless the deputy ambassador backed him down the line.
Almost always the REAL power lies with the deputy ambassador. Trust me on this. Reid would know this as well as anyone (esp given that he is a senator). Being appointed to an ambassadorship is the politial equivalent of a sinecure just before retirement. It’s a dead end.
-Polaris
my experience with ambassadors is that all of teh non-political ones switch about every two years …
and the political ones last longer because they are not state department officials so they just play golf and go to parties.
#473 The political ambassadors (which is the vast majority) also don’t last any longer than the administration. In fact as Knight alluded to, it’s policy for ALL ambassadors to offer their resignations upon the end of an administration pending a replacement being appointed and confirmed. This offer is almost always accepted.
Political ambassadors have virtually zero real power in their host country or anywhere else.
-Polaris
Kneel at the alter of Piglosi
http://planetsmilies.net/angry-smiley-225.gif
in the country i was in we did not have a deputy ambassador.
just a consul officer, some cia types, and some youngsters.
the cia types got in trouble for asking us about our activities, how many students we had etc. naturally the pcv’s complained …
ah the clinton years … when all we had to worry about was the president f’ing an intern, not the country!
#474 A cousin (2nd cousin) of mine studied Chinese at UC Santa Barbara and went into the State Department after graduation. Last I heard (and he never said anything to me that he shouldn’t have), he was one of the many trade attaches attached to our Beijing Embassy.
His comments about the ambassadors (from both parties) was “pithy” to say the least….but the Chinese were never offended at all. The Chinese have a similiar policy to ours except in their case being ambassador is a sinecure for senior Party Officials that Beijing as often as not want to keep away from China. The party apparatus within the foreign ministry does all the real work.
-Polaris
#476 Unless it was an unusual country, I assure you that there was at least one State Dept type that told the ambassador what to do to keep from royally fouling things over…and that person or persons did all the real work and held all the real power.
-Polaris
“The political ambassadors (which is the vast majority)” …
ah, see i think we are talking two different things.
i do not mean the little obama donors and friends who get rewards.
both parties would like to see reid gone … and for a long long time.
“I assure you that there was at least one State Dept type”
oh yeah, the consul officer.
he was a dik. i hated him. i called ted kennedy’s office and got him in trouble because he wanted to kick me out of the country right away once my peace corps time was up.
ted kennedy’s office made a phone call … boy was he mad
but i got to stay.
#479 If you appoint an ambassador for political reasons, he is a political ambassador.
If Obama gives Reid a choice between well paid exile or (in Reid’s mind) the opportunity to sit at the levers of power in D.C., Reid will take the later in a heartbeat! Don’t think he won’t especially since he wants to pass it on to his son!
As long as Reid thinks he can survive 2010 and thinks that healthcare will make that difficult to impossible for him, then Reid will be a problem for Obama even though Reid given his own druthers would vote for the bill. It is in Reid’s best political interest to drag this thing out and allow it to die without him having to make a politically damaging vote at all.
-Polaris
Diplomatic immunity could be fun though, speed limit… what speed limit.
#480
pcv’s travel on usa government passports and visas
the consul would not extend mine.
until teddy made a phone call and splained some things to him.
#480 He probably could have kicked you out too, but (given this was clinton), he didn’t want to cross a very powerful and senior member of the party that was allied with the administration. Smart man. Sen Kennedy could have killed his career (the man was known for that among other things).
-Polaris
“As long as Reid thinks he can survive 2010 …”
on that we agree
or
he gets some huge payoff, that has to last past 2012
i just cannot see reid taking a job that ends with obama.
#483 Like I said, any career State Dept type that isn’t afraid of Ted Kennedy isn’t employed for very long.
-Polaris
#485 Yes, but I can’t see what that payoff could possibly be (to compare with the power and relative job security of the Senate Majority leader).
Can you? (No Ambassador isn’t it)
-Polaris
“He probably could have kicked you out too”
yes, technically he could
but my assistant peace corps director (apcd) explained to me that if a congressman asks any state dept. employee about a constituent’s case, the employee has to write up a report to his boss explaining why the employee is dnying the request
who in turn has to write a report to his boss
who in turn has to write a report to his boss
all the way up to the assistants to the cabinet
soooooooo … they usually just give in. there is no percentage in fighting with a peace corps volunteer if you are a government toady.
Don’t have to fear ol’Teddy anymore though.
Ok kids I’m headed out, catch you tomorrow.
“to compare with the power and relative job security of the Senate Majority leader).”
i cannot think of any job that has any power — except judge — which obama will not give to a white male ex-pol. if he was hispanic or black maybe, but not reid.
he could get a UN job, but that would be a huge step down, except for ambassador to the UN. however, that is actually a real position which needs someone at least somewhat qualified.
which is why i think tahiti would be good. some really really nice post, where no one would second guess him — but it cannot be an important country like france. it has to be something like the virgin islands or samoa or tahiti.
fiji might be nice.
think of it this way …
if 20 years from now judge alito left the bench and became sec. of state …
you would think he is an idiot.
however, if left the bench and became ambassador to st barts … you would just think he is a dirty old man who likes topless women.
“Tne fault of this bill does not lie with the Catholics/or the Catholic Church. Rather, the fault lies with 219 Marxists and 1 Rino.”
BINGO!
in our society, being a dirty old man living it up on a beach drinking margaritas is far more socially acceptable than being a neutered sec. of state.
the catholic church runs bingo btw
i slept last night and am up early. don’t you people sleep ?
lisab, i hope you stay. just ignore ? and Jay ( Wes).
and tina, please do not leave.
do not let ? win.
#496 Nope. Next question?
-Polaris
Polaris,
i got it …
chancellor of UNLV with a chair and a tenured seat in poli sci department.
#496 Nope. Next question?
-Polaris
are you in your 30’s, 40’s or 50’s ? my guess is you are 30-40.
#500 I am 41 actually.
-Polaris
Tim V,
it costs $6 to feed an orphan baby for a month.
that is $72 for a year.
15 children … have been fed for a year with the money rightpundits has paid me.
you do the math …
feed 15 orphans for a year …
or
read thread after thread of
chekote: palin sucks, she should abort trig today
brandon: yes, you are right, death to palin
wes: i love you chekote
chekote: palin’s daughter should abort her child too
brandon: yes, you are right, death to bristol
wes: i love you chekote
chekote: social cons have no right to vote how they want
brandon: yes, you are rightm death to social cons
wes: i love you chekote
chekote: the catholic church and all its members should be shot
brandon: yes, you are right, death to catholics
wes: i love you chekote
Tim V,
btw you would really like blatheringsblog.com
it is my favorite political blog
however, it is not very active. just 20 posts a day or so … however, the owner is quite friendly.
i visited that blog once or twice
brandon does great work on polls. you might be being hard on him. he makes many valuable contributions here. sometimes he rubs me the wrong way but i do appreciate what he does.
mccain said they would evaluate the contest a bit differently this month. i wish i knew the new “rules of the game” i want the $300 this time.
it is very kind of you to donate to the orphans lisa, i respect your charitable instincts and actions.
chekote: those that oppose abortions want government to control everything and as a libertarian my position blah blah blah
wes: hi chek
chekote: the social cons costs us the election blah blah blah
wes: i wonder what chek looks like, i bet she is hoy
chekote: palin is unqualified, look how she handled the palin intervies, blah, blah blah
chek: i was banned at bjg because i speak my mind and dont back down, blah blah blah
brandon: chek hasnt said anything she should be banned for
wes: here is another hot babe, i like cjicks with meat and big boobs not the calista flockhart /lisab body type, hi chek blah blah blah
wes:lisab posts are rambling incoherent blah blah blah
Polaris….This thread is very long and admitedly I didn’t read everyone’s comment. However, I wake this morning to find that the House did indeed pass thie atrocious bill. Please give me your gut feeling on what the Seante will do? Could they possibly be so stupid as to pass it? I am truly worried not just because I am 62 and fear that if this becomes law I will probably at some point be facing the “death panel” but just as important I am a small business owner and really fear this will put us out of business. Anyone else’s comments will also be appreciated.
I was gone most of yesterday. Anything important happen? I see that HC with a public option is still less than 10, so we must still be winning. It is great to have a life outside of politics on a nice weather weekend
I see that HC with a public option is still less than 10
On Intrade
Public option is dead. This vote proves that beyond a doubt.
The speaker is just very powerful.
I actually think this vote lessens the chance of healthcare getting out of the senate.
The GOP-Lieberman-Nelson and a few others know that Pelosi will pass whatever dog bill the senate passes.
No conference just a last night cramdown
Well here is wishing you all good health. You are going to need it.
Darrell, you have a nice day on tap in tidewater, go out and enjoy it. My wife and I are going to spend some quality time on the water in the Northern Neck today.
514…thx. Have fun.
Congrats to Knighthawk who got the 220 number correct.
I had Cao going down anyway. He is going to learn the hard way that the Dems won’t vote for him anyway.
Even in an R landslide (which is coming courtesy of Nancy Pelosi), Cao now loses by double digits.
The R’s will gain at least 60 in the Senate even with the Cao loss. I have no exact prediction because everything I had analyzed assumed that the Dem House would not really try to turn us into Cuba.
As for the Senate, let’s not get fooled into the incorrect thinking that they will pass some waterdowned version of HC and everything will be fine. If they pass ANYTHING, Pelosi will get everything she wants at conference.
Starting tomorrow, this country begins to go crazy. This is the true tipping point. If the congresscritters thought the summer was tough, wait until they get a load of what is coming.
As for the 39 BD’s, we are not fooled. Not even a little bit.
Rdel,
I disagree with you. Here is my likely scenario:
1. There is a whole bunch of hemming and hawing.
2. Reid then capitulates and proposes a watered down version that gets 60 for cloture. No public option and no mandates. Still, only 51 vote for it in the end.
3. The House bill becomes the final bill in conference.
4. Welcome to Cuba.
We need 3 million people in DC. If there is a protest after the New Year and with a little notice, I will be there.
Where are all those people who came on here and promised that Obama and the DEMS would govern from the center????
Darrell,
This is their version of governing from the center.
This country is going to go nuts people. Absolutely nuts.
“The House bill becomes the final bill in conference”
We have a winner.
520…going…going? GONE!!!
I hope all those seniors who voted DEM last year enjoy their death panel experience.
America – Unhinged.
Has a nice ring to it.
Michael Moore and George Soros are toasting their takeover of America.
Who will say that a viable GOP seat retention or takeover like NY23 doesn’t mean much now.
Although with that win, the bill may still have passed it would have provided less cover for a “blue dog”. Actually I think of them as pound puppies. It’s obvious they have a matrix which allows them to spread their guilt. “Charlie you vote no today and for the next vote you can go yes, etc.
They have never been a bloc and will never be an effective bloc. I consider them a scam.
Brutus,
That is a good point. I think Dede would have sold us out as well.
I hope the 10 million Conservatives who could not bother to vote at all in 2010 are happy, along with the socialist Catholic Church.
And no I don’t believe citizens should go to jail for not buying insurance – asset seizure would be my recommendation~~commie cory
Asset seizure===Fascist peckerwood.
The first 24 year old Obama supporter who can’t get a job and faces a fine on mandated health, and complains to me about it, is going to get blasted.
Of course, it will still be Bush’s fault.
Md, that will not happen. The House Bill will not be the Final. The Seante is way too egomanic for the unwashed House to get the final say.
You see we are forgetting something, 2010 is not jus about Congress, there are 38 Governor Seats up and state Legislatures before Redistricting.
The DEMS will get wiped out
Asset seizure. Hey this really is Cuba!!!
Felix,
Your dreaming. The leftist in office does not care about the congressional makeup. He could care less and that should scare us all to death.
MD, you give Pelosi way too much credit. If she was the one in cngress, why is Cap and Trade dead?
Phil, Boehner became Speaker Boehner last night. He proved his worth to conservatives.
You think it is dead.
imo – this was the strategy all along. Pass the 2 measures in the house and then concentrate on the senate. You are fooling yourself if you don’t believe these measures will pass the senate.
The first 24 year old Obama supporter who can’t get a job and faces a fine on mandated health, and complains to me about it, is going to get blasted.
Of course, it will still be Bush’s fault.
Comment by MD
In that particular scenario, that individual would then qualify for a subsidized insurance credit of some kind, as he would be classed as “low income”. They aren’t required to by their own ins.
Rdelbov, thank You for your sane reasoning. I agree. Pelosi did this to appease her base, and will now lose the House.
It is DOA in the Senate.
These names Dorgan, Blanche Lincoln and Webb will never vote for Cloture.
why is Cap and Trade dead?
Comment by Felix — November 8, 2009 @ 9:00 am
Is it??
These names Dorgan, Blanche Lincoln and Webb will never vote for Cloture.
Comment by Felix
Wishful thinking I fear.
Felix,
They WILL vote for cloture on a watered down bill with no pub option ormandates. Then they will vote against the final bill. Then, at conference, Pelosi gets her bill.
Reid will turnover and let Nancy scratch his N++ts like a good puppy dog.
We are brothers in arms here people. I said yesterday this is a best case scenario for the GOP.
We know have won the House back, the dEMS on record voting for Socialism. no more hiding, it is dead in the seante.
We will win 10 governorships and be in control for redistricting.
Boehner finally rose up and became a leader.
The dems have 258 seats , Boehner got it down to 219 plus a RINO
I would suggest that Cao take a nice long vacation and not tell anyone where he is going. He should call Sanford for some advice on that.
Boehner kept the vote to only 220 yea’s. That is the Reason the Seant escrubs it.
@30 or 240 would have given the Seante Cover, but only one GOP traitor, Boehner did a great job
Webb??
Felix,
On that, I agree with you. The House is absolutely going red in 10. I always thought it would. Now, I think the amount of seats gained will be historic and make 94 look like a tea party for the dems.
The Senate might actually be in play. I never, ever thought that would be a possibility.
Boehner kept the vote to only 220 yea’s. That is the Reason the Seant escrubs it.
Comment by Felix
He would be a good speaker,but I would suggest that it was the tea partiers that kept the vote down, not Boehner. The blue dogs were given a fig leaf,otherwise they would have voted for it.
Phil, Webb is done in 2012 after the tuesday vote in Va.
Md, does this open the door for Palin in 2012, to be the one who saves the Country from Marxism? Like Reagan in 1980?
DQ, yes the tea partiers I agree, but a guy like Gingrich or Haestert would have screwed it up.
Phil, Webb is done in 2012 after the tuesday vote in Va.
Comment by Felix —
All the more reason he has nothing to lose by voting for cloture. One last parting shot at his constituents.
Quix,
It won’t work. They are married to Pelosi. Any appearance that they have made with her pigness will be turned into a local campaign ad.
The dogs are going to be exterminated come November ofI 10. A handful who are truly con dems will survive like Boren and Taylor.
However, our gains with the BD’s are just the beginning. I look at PA alone and I see pickups with Kathy Dahlmeyer who was a solid yes all along and barely won in 08. She goes down by double digits. Patrick Meehan takes PA 7, Sestak’s open seat, easily. Kanjorski is in trouble and would have lost in 08 were it not for the fin crisis. Murtha is in big trouble despite what many here think. None of these critters are blue dogs. I think Altmire is a blue dog but the trend is against him.
Even Patrick Murphy could be in trouble. +5 in PA in House alone, a gained Senate seat and a gained Gov seat.
Guys,this is my favorite site but maybe try a different view of this at http://www.freerepublic.com
There are many conservative lawyers over there who give great details on procedure in the Seante.
Felix,
No – her time is 16. I don’t want to get into my reasoning since I have typed that before and it is a long post.
Taylor voted for Clinton’s impeachement he is is true, but still votes for Pelosi as Speaker.
Felix,
They can change the rules in the senate at their pleasure.
Yep – elections do have consequences. Nice work by the cons staying hime in 08. Hope your happy now.
md we cannot concede 2012, think of the Judges
Yes Felix but Taylor is truly embedded in his districk like Boren. There are 7 or 8 total that are safe. The rest of them will go down and at least another 30 who are not listed as dogs will go down.
The seniors get what is going on. AA’s will only turn out for black candidates who are already in the absolute safest districts. They will not turn out for anyone else.
Specter officially lost his job yesterday. He may not make it through Sestak. Let’s assume for a moment he does.
Someone tell why the AA community is going to massively turnount for an 80 year old white man?
I think the Reps were right in not voting against the Stupak bill. It would have been seen as a gimmick and right now its Pelosi and Reid who are engaging in all the gimmicks, let them own it.
After weeks of arm twisting, cajoling, horse trading, threats, exhortations, etc. the Democrats managed to approve this boondoggle by 2 votes? The all important “reform” everyone needed and wanted squeaked by 220-215. The Reps should run an ad with this script.
I don’t want to concede anything Felix but I still can’t find a way to 270 for the R’s. I have numerous scenarios where we come close but none that put us over the top in 12.
While I think we will wipe the Dems out in PA in 10, Obama will still take the state in 12 because he will get the turnout. The AA communiy have turned into sheep, sadly.
I stick with my prediction for 2009-2010:
Reps 13+ governorships (including the 2 last week)
Reps 9+ Senate seats
Reps 65-95 House seats
Jason,
You are correct because abortion funding will be put back in at conference anyway. This way, we have a true record.
Sam,
A month ago, I would have thought your numbers were crazy. Today, not so much.
I think we have 356 days or so until we can exact some revenge. God, I can’t wait.
“I don’t want to concede anything Felix but I still can’t find a way to 270 for the R’s. I have numerous scenarios where we come close but none that put us over the top in 12.”
Did you see Christie winning in NJ? Get better sources.
I did. Do you really, truly believe that Obama will lose NJ?
No way. My source is me. For the record, I was criticized for saying Obama was going to win a week before the election and was going to take FL.
I think we can make it much closer this time and, if we don’t take the Senate in 10, actually take it in 12. Even with a narrow Obama victory.
I can’t wait for November of 10.
I wonder how the market will react tomorrow?
MD:
Here’s the political scenario today – just focusing on the party ID demographics,
Reps base is energized
Dems base is depressed (see AA’s, youth etc.)
Ind’s are breaking 2-to-1 to Reps
There is no math that does not point to massive turnover in 2010 for Senate, House, governors and state houses.
Caveat: My analysis is based on the economic picture (which translates into “mood of the country”) remaining similar to today’s. It could get better, it could get worse.
#508
What brought that on?????
The Catholic Church is left leaning in their politics. It is not an attack. It is a fact.
We’ll see what happens in the Senate. In any case, whatever the Dems pass will just like another stimulus bill. It will fail and people will finally realize that in 2008 they voted for a celebrity fantasy world.
#502. Death to Catholics? I AM Catholic for Christs sake.
Sam,
I agree with you on 10 – 1000%. I have long predicted that the House would go red in 10. My initial prediction for the Senate in Jan was a net gain of +2 for the dems in the senate based on the numerous GOP retirements. Then Specter turned (thank God), the Obama admin hired some very viable candidates to work for them, thus taking them out of contention for some open seats, cap and trade passed, conservatives finally learned how to organize themselves (this is just the beginning btw), Obama appears weak on national security, the health care debacle will only cause more seniors to vote against dems, and now I think my most recent prediction of +6 could be very conservative.
The mids are about the following things:
1. Nancy Pelosi
2. Barack Obama
3. Death Panels
4. No jobs
It is very, very simple. Of course, the GOP being the GOP could find a way to screw it up.
We need to recruit good candidates that play well in their district. I dunno if Pete Sessions is the man to do that.
Sam,
I also say let’s fight like Hell for 12. I don’t want to concede it at all. It is just tough for me to envision beating this demoguage in12.
outta here. Have a good day Sam. Be back in a couple of hours.
#575. I agree. The map is completely against us at this point. Even with the likely flip backs of NC and IN, we still aren’t even close.
Why didn’t the GOP oppose the STupak charade? Was it because they thought that STupak et al would vote for final passage anyway? But but… isnt that what happened anyway? Why give those Blue Frauds ANY cover whatsoever?
BTW, the Right/Wrong track number is abysmal.
#578. Because the Right to Life groups would have scored it against them.
By the way, does this bill tax “cadillac” health plans? Like the ones the unions have?
#578
Because they always opt for cheap tactics.
NYT
Obama told Dems: You don’t want those extremist teabag people to win, do you?
Mr. Obama, during his private pep talk to Democrats, recognized Mr. Owens election and then posed a question to the other lawmakers. According to Representative Earl Blumenauer of Oregon, who supports the health care bill, the president asked, “Does anybody think that the teabag, anti-government people are going to support them if they bring down health care? All it will do is confuse and dispirit” Democratic voters “and it will encourage the extremists.”
Via HA
#583
As I posted several times, the Dems were stuck. If they didn’t pass it, their base would be demoralize. If they did, the indie will be angered. In any case, we’ll see what happens in the Senate. This bill will be another disaster like the stimulus bill.
http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2009/11/real-oklahoma-students-ace-citizenship.html
Dede in NY23 would also have voted for this monstrosity. So it is better that it was a Dem voting for it then another R.
http://hotair.com/archives/2009/11/07/report-hasan-attended-same-radical-mosque-as-911-hijackers/
580… is so then two things…
the RTL groups are stupid and short sighted
The GOP are a bunch of brain dead pussies.
HD – how dare we call him a terrorist!!
Where are all the “good” muslim leaders in the US? Where are they? Why are they silent?
ndependent Democratic Sen. Joe Lieberman told “Fox News Sunday” that Democrats can certainly count him in the “no” column if they keep in a government-backed insurance plan.
“If the public option is in there as a matter of conscience, I will not allow this bill to come to a final vote,” the Connecticut senator said, signaling that he would back a Republican filibuster — which Democrats need 60 votes to break.
FNC
I expect the GOP to gain seats and I also expect that they will have war chest that dwarfs the DEMs. Who is going to give pelosi’s party money based on cap & trade, health care, and the failure of the stimulus?
HD – doesn’t matter. They will take out the public option and mandates in the Senate and put it back in while at conference.