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Nelson Leads Scott By 5% in FL

This week, Gravis Marketing has released new numbers on the races in Florida for the US Senate and Governor.

US SENATE – FLORIDA (Gravis)
Bill Nelson (D-inc) 44%
Rick Scott (R) 39%

GOVERNOR – FLORIDA (Gravis)
Adam Putnam (R) 31%
Andrew Gillum (D) 32%

Adam Putnam (R) 26%
Andrew Gillum (D) 22%
John Morgan (I) 18%

Adam Putnam (R) 31%
Gwen Graham (D) 32%

Adam Putnam (R) 27%
Gwen Graham (D) 23%
John Morgan (I) 17%

Andrew Gillum (D) 33%
Richard Corcoran (R) 22%

Andrew Gillum (D) 23%
Richard Corcoran (R) 20%
John Morgan (I) 19%

Gwen Graham (D) 33%
Richard Corcoran (R) 24%

Gwen Graham (D) 24%
Richard Corcoran (R) 20%
John Morgan (I) 18%

GOVERNOR – FLORIDA – DEM PRIMARY (Gravis)
Gwen Graham 18%
Andrew Gillum 12%
Philip Levine 6%
Chris King 3%
Jeff Greene 2%

GOVERNOR – FLORIDA – GOP PRIMARY (Gravis)
Andrew Putnam 23%
Ron Desantis 12%
Jack Latvala 2%
Richard Corcoran 2%
Bob White 1%

This poll was done December 19-24 among 5778 registered voters.

Posted by Dave at 11:35 am
Filed under: General | Comments (417)

417 Responses to “Nelson Leads Scott By 5% in FL”

  1. Waingro says:

    First!

  2. Waingro says:

    Drudge having some fun with the new Ras poll.

    MATT DRUDGE
    ?Verified account @DRUDGE
    2h2 hours ago

    Rasmussen Poll shows Trump at 46% APPROVE this morning, with 53% DISAPPROVE…

    What about Obama at same exact date first year in presidency?? 46% APPROVE, 53% DISAPPROVE!

  3. JC says:

    What about Obama at same exact date first year in presidency?? 46% APPROVE, 53% DISAPPROVE!
    ———————

    Mow imagine if Obama was treated the same way Trump was by the media and Washington institutions.

  4. NYCmike says:

    Please correct me if I am wrong…..but hasn’t Scott usually been behind at the beginning of most of his races?

    He isn’t the most well-liked, but he does seem to be respected by a majority, who then vote for him.

  5. NYCmike says:

    That works for any Republican name (although, people like Robbie and “CG” won’t even allow Trump that):

    “Mow imagine if Obama was treated the same way Bush 41 was by the media and Washington institutions.”

    “Mow imagine if Obama was treated the same way Reagan was by the media and Washington institutions.”

    “Mow imagine if Obama was treated the same way Bush 43 was by the media and Washington institutions.”

    “Mow imagine if Obama was treated the same way Pence was by the media and Washington institutions.”

  6. Chicon says:

    Wain, do you know why Rasmussen repeatedly get better JA numbers for Trump than most other pollsters? I assume they’re not making stuff up, and that there’s a more rational reason.

  7. mnw says:

    So Gravis was RVs. THAT might explain why Scott isn’t doing as well in Gravis as he has in other fairly recent polls. I still think that FL is the best blue-to-red pickup opportunity of all, although the FL Senate race gets FAR less attention than Heitkamp, Donnelly & McCaskill.

    RE: deportation comparisons:

    I think fakenewsinc likes to blare that “Deportations Are Down Under Trump!” for 2 reasons:

    1) to show that Trump is a fraud on immigration, & that his poor stooped supporters have been played; and

    2) to demonstrate that Zero was actually tougher on illegals than Trump.

    All nonsense, of course. Next to impeachment, the left’s best wet dream is to separate Trump from his base. “They’re so disappointed now, they’re angry! Most say they regret voting for him! Is this the end of Trump?” kind of thing.

  8. MichiganGuy says:

    Pervert Alert:

    “A longtime CNBC show director has been accused of spying on his teen nanny with a hidden bathroom camera, continuing a relentless string of sex scandals for NBCUniversal.

    The New York Daily News reported Wednesday that Dan Switzen hid a spy camera in a tissue box in the bathroom of his Westchester, N.Y. home in order to spy on his teenage au pair.”

    http://amp.dailycaller.com/2017/12/27/cnbc-director-accused-of-spying-on-teen-nanny/

  9. Waingro says:


    Chicon says:
    December 28, 2017 at 12:03 pm

    Wain, do you know why Rasmussen repeatedly get better JA numbers for Trump than most other pollsters? I assume they’re not making stuff up, and that there’s a more rational reason.”

    Well, they are the only outlet who consistently uses a “likely voter” model, which can explain things somewhat. But, either way, I would assume their PID probably is a little more GOP friendly than others.

    Regardless, it seems like he has been getting a bit of a bump overall right now, as he also got a modest bump in Economist/yougov’s weekly tracking. Gallup’s release at 1 will be interesting to see if this is a trend.

  10. Waingro says:

    “I still think that FL is the best blue-to-red pickup opportunity of all, although the FL Senate race gets FAR less attention than Heitkamp, Donnelly & McCaskill.”

    McCaskill SHOULD be the easiest. It has now drifted into a solid red state, and the GOP actually recruited a decent candidate to finally take her out. Come on Missouri!

  11. DW says:

    Biggest danger for MO is if McCaskill bows out and that guy with the loading rifle ad runs again.

  12. Chicon says:

    Thanks for the info, Wain.

  13. mnw says:

    OK… MO Senate:

    Lifelong Show Me Stater here.

    McCaskill is very weak, but the polling done so far does show her to be tied with Hawley—- which is a lousy place for a two-term incumbent to be. Her name rec is much higher than Hawley’s also, which means Hawley has lots of room to grow.

    I guarantee you that McCaskill will NOT drop out of the race. Full stop. Period. The end.

    As to whether McCaskill or Nelson in FL is more endangered? I dunno. Until the Gravis RV poll today, every other poll I remember seeing has had Scott ahead.

  14. MichiganGuy says:

    “The embattled National Football League announced its decision to cancel this week’s edition of ‘Sunday Night Football’ on Tuesday; hoping to avoid a ratings bloodbath as a less-than-stellar line-up and New Year’s Eve festivities would have caused the NFL to reach embarrassing new lows.”

    https://www.hannity.com/media-room/game-over-nfl-cancels-sunday-night-football-on-new-years-eve/

    🙂

  15. JC says:

    @NYCmike

    I’m 100% convinced that the left’s near total control of the established media institutions (both news and pop culture) is worth at least 20 points nationally.

    They definately don’t win on their ideas. They win on two things; 1) keeping the government handouts rolling, and 2) identity politics, primarily through the stigmatization of the right.

    Rush made an excellent point a while ago. Forget all of the myriad issues of today – when you strip conservatism down to it’s most basic form, it’s just plain old common sense. Most Americans try to live their lives conservatively – achieve success through hard work, keep the money that you’ve earned, raise their kids with strong family-oriented values, obey the rule of law, follow the teachings of their religion, treat everyone equally regardless of race, gender, or class, ect.

    But even though they try to live that way, they don’t always vote that way. Mainly because the right has been so stigmatized by the media.

    The prime example of this is the black community, who despite being largely socially conservative on the issues vote lock step with the dems 90-10. Why? See above.

  16. NYCmike says:

    “The prime example of this is the black community, who despite being largely socially conservative on the issues vote lock step with the dems 90-10. Why? See above.”

    -I would like to see a breakdown for the black community as a whole when certain large urban population centers are taken out of the equation. I wonder if the disparity would still be that high.

  17. NYCmike says:

    In regards to the NFL, I just read something about the NBA ratings being sky-high…..although individual players have expressed themselves publicly on politics, none of them have made a statement AT THEIR JOB (on the court)!

    The NFL, and its employees, should take a look and try to learn something from that.

  18. Blobbie says:

    “Somebody needs to pay for all my children and my – for all my suffering. Somebody needs to be held accountable, and they need to pay.” angel adams

    16 children 3 maybe 4 baby daddy’s the one she had 10 children with is now in prison

    she gets $2300 in food stamps

  19. mnw says:

    JC 16

    I think that’s the way it used to be. I no longer recognize that as being America today.

    I don’t think AAs are “socially conservative” any longer, either.

  20. Bitterlaw says:

    The NFL should never have scheduled a New Year’s Eve game at 8:15 regardless of politics. The audience would be out at parties even if it was a good matchup. This game sucks no matter what time it is played.

  21. Chicon says:

    Mnw – how’s it going with the knee?

    Perhaps JC meant religious when saying socially conservative. My anecdotal experience is that the AA community is more religious than the white population. Don’t know if that’s really true or not.

    Anyway, as we recently discussed, the GOP should pound away at that constituency. If they voted even 70-30 dem it would make a big difference in some states. Also would be good for them, too, as they’re vote would no longer be taken for granted.

  22. Chicon says:

    Their vote.

  23. mnw says:

    Chicon

    Thx for asking about my knee convalescence. I had the replacement surgery 2 weeks ago. The main surprise has been that the pain is bad enough to interfere with sleep, pain pills notwithstanding. It’s extremely frustrating for ordinary everyday things (taking a dish to the kitchen; assembling all the items I need to write checks) to be such an enormous energy-draining effort! I have excellent 24/7 home assistance, thank God. I haven’t had any surgery since I was 10 (tonsils), so this is all new to me.

    RE: AAs:

    Got to find a way to go around their institutional leadership. I could see doing a variation of a townhall— maybe piggyback on some other event— and take questions 1 on 1. The trick would be to do it unscheduled, to avoid leftists packing it.

    So far, I can’t say that Trump has seemed very imaginative or creative in his minority outreach efforts.

  24. jason says:

    The Rasmussen poll showing by 35-53% Americans are opposed to drilling in ANWR shows the power of the corrupt media and their ecoterrorist allies.

    ANWR is what, the size of South Carolina, and drilling will happen on 2000 acres or so.

    With directional drilling you can extract oil from an angle, so if there is something important over the deposit it can be drilled without harming it.

  25. JC says:

    Chicon says:
    December 28, 2017 at 2:14 pm

    Anyway, as we recently discussed, the GOP should pound away at that constituency. If they voted even 70-30 dem it would make a big difference in some states. Also would be good for them, too, as they’re vote would no longer be taken for granted.
    ——————

    Scott Adams agrees with this assessment: https://t.co/AMOPLIuZrR

  26. DW says:

    25 – ANWR is a moonscape. There is nothing there to speak of on the surface. So there is no reason at all to not get something valuable beneath the surface.

  27. DW says:

    go to google maps and scroll to ANWR in northeast Alaska, and zoom in to mountain top level and scroll around. The images look similar to the shots of Pluto sent back a couple of years ago.

  28. Chicon says:

    24 – hang in there, it’ll get better soon.

    I’m sure Trump himself doesn’t have time to do as you suggest – and your suggestions make sense to me. I thought he had an effective message for the AA community in the election, and I think the party itself has to commit to going after this, and other minoriity groups. The process will take a long time, imo.

  29. Chicon says:

    DW – that’s what they used for those fake Pluto photos :).

  30. Chicon says:

    Mike, you’re barking up the wrong tree.

  31. JC says:

    Chicon says:
    December 28, 2017 at 3:02 pm

    I’m sure Trump himself doesn’t have time to do as you suggest – and your suggestions make sense to me. I thought he had an effective message for the AA community in the election, and I think the party itself has to commit to going after this, and other minoriity groups. The process will take a long time, imo.
    ——————-

    There’s a great chance to reach out to the black community with the infrastructure bill next year. But sadly the most likely outcome is that anything positive for the black community will be drowned out by the over the top, fear mongering media who will proclaim the the bill is ‘racist’ and will “put ya’ll back in chains”.

    And they’ll believe it.

  32. JC says:

    The dems will initiate artificial race riots through their paid goons when Trump announces his infrastructure plan.

    You will see every celeb (and journalist) shout racism to the top of their lungs. They don’t even need to bother twisting logic in pretzels to justify their absurd claims anymore. It’s racist. It’s evil. It’s slavery. America is going to die. Ect.

    The black caucus members – who have a political and monetary interest in keeping blacks dependent on government – will claim this is black genocide. Literally. They’ll use those exact words. Hyperbole knows no limits to the left anymore.

    The democrats know that if they lose even 10-15% of the black population then their party is finished on a national level. So they’ll go full nuclear on this infrastructure bill (especially if Trump makes a strong push for black outreach).

  33. DW says:

    Blacks will pick cotton for the Democrat Party Plantation for the rest of my life. It probably won’t go on forever, but I see no changes for the next 40 years.

  34. janz says:

    #28 ANWR is basically tundra type of land, which is why it looks so barren in those images. Like Jason already pointed out, the impact to the land will be minor, as to the scope of land actually involved in drilling. Also, with our current equipment and technology the environment can be well protected while resources are accessed and made available for use.

    However, these “facts” never come into play when the dems and environmentalists use ANWR as an example of how R’s have no respect for the land. More and more their narratives and gripes are more about political advantage than engaging in honest debate and/or discussions.

  35. Bitterlaw says:

    The dems will initiate artificial race riots through their paid goons when Trump announces his infrastructure plan.

    Why would Dems protest an infrastructure plan that gives $1 Trillion to Democrats and unions (also Democrats)?

  36. mnw says:

    Like every President, Trump has time to make personal appearances! He could schedule the kind of events we’ve been discussing here.

    I don’t like linking AA voter outreach to “infrastructure.” Ugh. In fact, I don’t like doing infrastructure next at all. It smells too much like Zero’s shovel-ready, cash-for-clunkers, Solyndra bullzh*t to me.

  37. mnw says:

    If ANWR were the size of a tennis court, the proposed drilling area would be the size of a wash cloth.

    I think polls about it are meaningless (except in AK), because the general public could care less.

  38. janz says:

    mnw, ANWR is simply another “controversial” wedge issue, involving few people but lots of negative print by the MSM that can be emotionally used against Trump.

  39. Tgca says:

    The AA community, like the gay community, often vote in lockstep. I believe this is because they are easily misled into the victim mentality that only the Dem can look out for them. AA generally vote 90+ for Dems while the gay community is more like 75%. Not sure that will change anytime in the near future.

  40. mnw says:

    A change of 2 or 3 points can have enormous consequences.

  41. JC says:

    Bitterlaw says:
    December 28, 2017 at 4:27 pm

    Why would Dems protest an infrastructure plan that gives $1 Trillion to Democrats and unions (also Democrats)?
    ——————-

    Because something tells me this will actually be a real infrastructure bill and not just another typical boondoggle where the money mostly goes to ‘nonprofit’ leftist unions who turn around and donate it back to democrats.

    Remember the dems ‘shovel ready jobs’ stimulus the media tried to sell to us? All those billion (or trillions?) didn’t go to building infrastructure. Every ‘project’ the dems pointed to as a result of the stimulus were maintenance and construction contracts already scheduled before the passage. Most of the money went to every lefty special interest group imaginable. It was the biggest government heist ever conducted.

    I could be wrong; none of us know the future. But Trump hasn’t done a single damn thing so far to suggest he would sell us out. He could have gone for another Bush style ‘tax cut’ that wasn’t really a tax cut but a simple shift in burden. That would have been much easier. But instead he went for the real thing.

    What happens when we enact a real infrastructure plan that builds roads, bridges, airports, schools, ect that actually improves the surrounding communities?

  42. NYCmike says:

    If it is some Obama-like boondoggle, I AM SURE that a Republican Congress will simply let it languish in committee, as they would not be silly enough to do something which would piss off a good part of their voters…….

  43. Tgca says:

    43 agreed

    But conversion takes time when victimhood has been drilled into you for as long as you can remember. I had to fight to ensure I did not play the victim where I grew up. Some would say I was a traitor. I would say I was set free, even if I did face certain prejudices.

    No matter what Obama did, liberal or conservative, he would still get the same level of AA support because the support is routed not so much in his policies but what he stands for, a victimized person, though he grew up more privileged than most blacks or whites.

  44. Blobbie says:

    I AM SURE that a Republican Congress will simply let it languish in committee
    —————————-

    ummmmmm …. trump writes legislation remember

  45. JC says:

    mnw says:
    December 28, 2017 at 4:28 pm

    Like every President, Trump has time to make personal appearances! He could schedule the kind of events we’ve been discussing here.
    —————–

    Trump has personally offered a white house invitation to the black caucus many times. And they rejected it each and every time. They won’t even speak with him. The black caucus is not interested in solutions.

    The democrats can’t risk Trump making positive inroads into the black community. That is why Trump and the GOP need to ignore the black caucus leadership and reach out directly to the non-elected influential black Americans.

    Trump could do this. He could do it via his favorite platform, Twitter. Many popular black athletes believe their community is not being treated fairly, hence the dopey knee protests. Trump could go on twitter and challenge these black athletes – ‘If you are serious about helping the black community, then lets meet and work on a solution. Or are you just all talk?!’

    Someone would answer the call. And all you need is a couple to get the ball rolling.

  46. lisab says:

    roy moore passes polygraph test

    AFTER

    the election….

    good move roy, i suggested taking that when the allegations came out …

    moron!

  47. Blobbie says:

    Poor people on minimum wage are not getting any tax cuts

    you TRUMP CHUMPS

  48. mnw says:

    Meeting with the CBC is exactly the opposite of what Trump needs to do! Go AROUND the CBC gatekeeper to real AA voters.

  49. Bitterlaw says:

    roy moore passes polygraph test

    Zzzzzzzzz. Inadmissible in court.

  50. mnw says:

    “Melania Trump Has Fashion Tricks Up Her Sleeve to Outshine Michelle Obama”

    Melania is extremely attractive. THAT’S the “trick.”

  51. Cash Cow TM says:

    Cold here.

    We went up to the pond where Walt’s grand kids ice skated.

    Walt says for the LAST TIME that the dinosaurs he knew never had wings. There is also no such things as buffalo wings.

  52. Tgca says:

    49 Agreed.

    Had he taken it before the election and passed, and then challenged his accusers to take it, and my guess most would not want to put themselves in the spotlight after he passed, then it could have made a difference in the vote.

    Dumb move on his part to wait. Now he looks like Hillary whining about a stolen election. He had hs chance. He blew it! Move on.

  53. Chicon says:

    51 – totally agree. Go direct, with a consistent message of what conservative leadership will do for all people.

  54. Tgca says:

    It’s starting to get chilly here too. It was like 80 today but now down to 75 and expected to hit 66 or 67 overnight. Time to crank up the heat and let the dogs in the bed. Brghhhh!!!

  55. Tina says:

    Any muh russian news?

    I miss rottie rubbish.

  56. SanDiegoCitizen says:

    Did not know this:

    “Trump has appointed 12 federal appeals court judges, the most ever appointed in the first year of a presidency since the appeals courts were established in 1891.”

  57. JC says:

    @realDonaldTrump

    In the East, it could be the COLDEST New Year’s Eve on record. Perhaps we could use a little bit of that good old Global Warming that our Country, but not other countries, was going to pay TRILLIONS OF DOLLARS to protect against. Bundle up!

  58. Bitterlaw says:

    BS on that alleged study. I doubt that very few guys who are allegedly not exclusively heterosexual would actually do Tgca (despite his fabulousness).

  59. Bitterlaw says:

    Considering that Jul was with bi-Wiccans or whatever, he is closer to the decline than the rest of us.

  60. JulStol says:

    “was with”

    Am with.

    And of course I’m closer to the decline than the rest of you. My generation started the trend. Gen Z is finishing it.

    By the way, you want to hear someone talk about what a clusterfluke the LGBTLMNOP movement is? Talk to my bi, Wiccan fiancee. Whooo boy does she despise “the movement”.

  61. Tina says:

    They are triggered by that tweet. Libs exploding.

  62. Bitterlaw says:

    Get married already.

  63. JC says:

    https://townhall.com/columnists/kurtschlichter/2017/12/28/trump-ends-2017-residing-in-his-enemies-heads-n2427402

    He was supposed to lose the primary, but he didn’t. He was supposed to lose the general, but he didn’t. He was supposed to fall victim to the covert schemes of leftist bureaucrats and the overt obstruction of The Resistance, but he didn’t. Instead, Donald Trump has prospered as the most conservative president since Ronald Reagan. And it’s breaking the souls of his enemies. Deliciously.

    The elite keeps losing to the guy they tell us is dumb. The elite keeps losing to the guy they tell us is a clown. The elite keeps losing to the guy who doesn’t meet their bottom line standard to be worthy of governing – being one of the elite. So, what’s that make the elite?

    He just refuses to lose. He just refuses to submit. He just refuses to give a damn about what they say or what they think. And that infuriates them. He won’t take a knee, but he will offer them a finger.

    Brick by brick, he is disassembling the rickety edifice of Barack Obama’s transformed America. Regulations? Slashed, even as the screams of the professional expert class echo across the District of Columbia. ISIS? Dead, with our military unleashed to hunt down our enemies without hesitation or mercy. The Courts? Packed, not with squishy wimps ready to bend to the will of the WaPo and the Georgetown cocktail crew but with true conservatives determined to fight for the Constitution.

    Trump’s enemies are getting tired of all the winning.

  64. Cash Cow TM says:

    Cash Cow has made it!
    I am in headline on DRUDGE!
    *********************************
    DRUDGE

    “Once Cash Cow, Oil Company Now Verges on Collapse…”

  65. lisab says:

    Huma’s Cousin, Who Partnered With ‘Russian Donald Trump,’ Convicted of Fraud, Tampered With Case By Deleting Emails

  66. lisab says:

    muslim bakery refuses gay wedding cake wedding cake

  67. lisab says:

    The social justice program provides students at Merrimack College with the chance to turn their passion for change, human rights and a more just world into a career.

    http://www.merrimack.edu/academics/liberal_arts/social-justice/major/

    it sounds like you will be really employable

  68. lisab says:

    Farmers’ markets are racist: ‘Habits of white people are normalized

  69. lisab says:

    I am So Sick of White Guys: The Coloring Book Experience

    https://www.amazon.com/So-Sick-White-Guys-Experience/dp/1979233152

  70. Trump says:

    Soon Robbie will be on here about Trump’s interview. He doesn’t realize that this improptu inteview tonight was the most brilliant fantastic thing ever and will help the GOP win in 2018.

  71. Bitterlaw says:

    President Trump has done some good things. He remains a vile scumbag as a person. Both can be true.

  72. jason says:

    Trump said he thinks Mueller will treat him fairly.

    I have my doubts.

  73. jason says:

    Poor people on minimum wage are not getting any tax cuts”

    Just terrible.

    People who don’t pay any taxes aren’t getting any money back?

    Racist!

  74. mnw says:

    “vile scumbag” is way overcharged, imo. But that is the language of these times in which we live.

  75. NYCmike says:

    “on a happier note”

    -THANKS, lisab!

  76. NYCmike says:

    “He remains a vile scumbag as a person.”

    -How many times have you met him personally, and/or professionally? The last count was……I forget….around…..?

    Or, is the only way you are making this judgment thru the reporting of the tabloids and the networks?

  77. NYCmike says:

    Wondering:

    What do Trump’s kids say about him?

    What do Reagan’s kids say about him?

  78. mnw says:

    I reserve ‘vile scumbag’ for criminals, I think.

    As for Trump? ‘garish & vulgar’ sounds adequate.

  79. Tina says:

    Donald J. Trump
    Donald J. Trump
    @realDonaldTrump
    The Democrats have been told, and fully understand, that there can be no DACA without the desperately needed WALL at the Southern Border and an END to the horrible Chain Migration & ridiculous Lottery System of Immigration etc. We must protect our Country at all cost!
    5:16 AM · Dec 29, 2017

    He is triggering this am…

  80. Tina says:

    James Woods
    James Woods
    @RealJamesWoods
    DNA is also based in science. Yours does not show you are Native American. So either you are an outright liar or you actually don’t believe in science. Which is it, #Liewatha

    Elizabeth Warren
    @elizabethforma
    I’m going to say something really crazy: I believe in science. Climate change is real and we have a moral obligation to protect this Earth for our children and grandchildren.
    12:13 AM · Dec 29, 2017

    Warren destroyed.

  81. Wes says:

    Is that James Woods the actor?

  82. mnw says:

    Wes

    Yes.

  83. mnw says:

    Now somebody explain to me, why is Trump feuding & a’fussing at .., Amaxon?

    PDT needs to study up on target selection & fire control.

  84. mnw says:

    sb Amazon

  85. Wes says:

    Go away, Roy:

    http://www.cnn.com/2017/12/28/politics/roy-moore-analysis/index.html

    He lost an unlosable race but just can’t accept reality.

  86. Tina says:

    Yes, james woods the actor. He is donservative and quite a good twitter user, if that is the correct word.

  87. Wes says:

    Where are all the Hedgehoggers who told us Roy Moore couldn’t possibly lose a Senate race in Alabama?

    You know, in 2010, Scott Brown at least fit the electorate of Massachusetts. He was a center-left, pro-choice pol. He broke with liberal orthodoxy primarily only on healthcare.

    Doug Jones is an unabashed liberal in no way reflective of the mood of Alabama’s voters.

    It would be like electing Mike Enzi to the Senate in Vermont. It wouldn’t happen. It shouldn’t happen.

    It did happen.

    That’s how bad Roy Moore was. He was the only Republican capable of losing a Senate race to a New England-style liberal in Alabama.

    He accomplished the dubious distinction of fulfilling that potential.

    Thank you, Steve Bannon. You’re an idiot.

  88. Wes says:

    I’m aware Woods is conservative. Ironically I read he’s a registered Democrat though I’m unaware of the truth of the claim.

  89. Tina says:

    A leftist nut through a fit at Disney Worlds hall of presidents, The man disrupted the attraction.

    Hopefully, dw kicked him out of the park.

    Why g9 to the attraction, if you are so easily triggered by something or somebody?

  90. Tina says:

    He was a democrat but broke with clinton, during the monica lewinsky situation.

    Pretty nice person btw. No big actor ego.

  91. Bitterlaw says:

    Diamond Jim?

    C

  92. Wes says:

    Morning, Bitter.

  93. Tina says:

    Omri Ceren
    @omriceren
    Good catch by @SenTomCotton: Iran got billions in windfall from nuclear deal, but Iranians are rioting because they say they haven’t seen any of it.

    Riots in iran.

  94. mnw says:

    Heckuva good actor too.

    I know it’s been discussed and re-cussed, but Moore would’ve won comfortably but for the black swan.

  95. DW says:

    81 – “Poor people on minimum wage are not getting any tax cuts”

    Just terrible.

    People who don’t pay any taxes aren’t getting any money back?
    —–

    Its what the Democrat Party has to offer. Anger that those not paying taxes don’t get a tax reduction. They are the party of empty heads with empty slogans that are just as stupid as they sound. They might as well run Yosemite Sam, who ran for Mayor on this platform:

    “There’s enough fresh air and sunshine in this great country of ours for everybody – and I’ll see to it, that you’ll get your share!”

  96. Tina says:

    Moore is an idiot.

  97. Wes says:

    Moore would have won without the sex allegations, but in a noncompetitive race in 2012 he won only 52-48. Previously he had won statewide 55-45. He lost badly two gubernatorial primaries. A comfortable win was never going to happen because Moore has always been a weak candidate who coasted on party ID in an increasingly GOP-aligned state.

    Eventually his own deficiencies as a candidate combined with allegations that likely had a chilling effect on some members of his personal base and caught up with him and drove the stake through the heart of his political career.

  98. Wes says:

    I hope Kay Ivey joins Roy Moore in forced political retirement in January 2018.

  99. Bitterlaw says:

    -How many times have you met him personally, and/or professionally? The last count was……I forget….around…..?

    Or, is the only way you are making this judgment thru the reporting of the tabloids and the networks?

    Zzzzzzzzz. His own words and actions are enough. 3 times married. Would date his daughter. P*ssy grabbing. Megyn Kelly had blood coming out of…(she asked a fair question). Slandered McCain’s war service.

    You have strong opinions on people you haven’t met, NYC. GFY.

  100. NYCmike says:

    Moore is an idiot. Moore would have won without the black swan incident, which CURIOUSLY has gone away, and those women will NEVER get their day in court.

    Someone else also spent $30 million knocking out an elected representative who, most likely, would have won comfortably, instead of going after Moore, the aforementioned idiot.

    Wes consistently overlooks that part of the story……for some ODD reason.

  101. Wes says:

    On a more positive note, Donald Trump has finally realized Joe Manchin is no political ally but a cynical, self-serving political opportunist hypocritically using the President as a tool for reelection while being a reflexive leftist in the Senate:

    http://dailycaller.com/2017/12/28/trump-blasts-joe-manchin-for-refusing-to-work-with-him/

    Assuming Steve Bannon doesn’t manage to get another moron nominated here, what Trump is saying may help Republicans finally beat Manchin and claim a Senate seat they haven’t won an election for since the Roaring ’20s.

  102. NYCmike says:

    2020 will be an interesting race in Alabama…..maybe Mo Brooks will run…..

  103. Wes says:

    When have I overlooked that, Mikey? I’ve said many times Moore should have been the one McConnell nuked rather than Brooks because Brooks would have won.

    You must have been asleep when I posted started posting exactly that as soon as Moore dispatched Strange in the runoff.

  104. NYCmike says:

    You did, Wes?

    My mistake, I may have missed it.

    Glad you recognized that part of the screw-up.

    Cheers.

  105. Tina says:

    Whatever hapoens, keep moore out of 2020 and little mitchie far away.

    Both did their damage.

  106. Bitterlaw says:

    NYC thinks the accusers wanted a day in court. They wanted to take down a creepy perv. I suspect there was truth to some of the accusations. Moore’s own admissions on Hannity were creepy enough.

  107. mnw says:

    I’m skeptical that Manchin Senate re-election will even be competitive. I agree he’s been worthless as a supposed ‘independent maverick.’ He occasionally votes for Trump judges who are going to be confirmed anyway. That’s it.

  108. Cash Cow TM says:

    The Dems were saying,

    “Please sir, can we have Moore?”

  109. DW says:

    Walt should take on Manchin.

  110. Chicon says:

    Moore is old news.

  111. Chicon says:

    Idiots like Bannon can only get material traction when the electorate in a state feels that their elected representatives are not governing as promised.

    Bannon types are more result than cause, imo.

  112. mnw says:

    Except… I strongly doubt that Trump would be POTUS without Bannon. So that would make Bannon an “indispensable idiot,” I guess.

  113. NYCmike says:

    “So that would make Bannon an “indispensable idiot,” I guess.”

    -He got too full of himself….just like most of these politicians do……they think as if WE NEED THEM TO CHOOSE FOR US!

  114. NYCmike says:

    Robbie and “CG” seemed to disappear along with the bad news…..I guess we’ll have to wait for the next Mueller “bombshell”!

  115. mnw says:

    I wish PDT would let go of The Wall and concentrate ALL his political capital on ending chain migration.

  116. NYCmike says:

    mnw,

    That would fine with me.

    Absolutely amazing that Trump is actually mentioning the end of chain migration! I am NOT used to Republicans sticking to such EXTREME POSITIONS. Hopefully, they will stick with it if they make any compromise on “The Dreamers”.

  117. NYCmike says:

    http://www.spiked-online.com/newsite/article/the-witch-hunting-of-lewis-hamilton/20697#.WkZ-z3lOnIV

    -I can’t believe this guy apologized for what he said to his nephew.

    Ridiculous.

  118. mnw says:

    NYC

    For the first time in my life, I’ve found a politician I take at face value. If he says he’s going to do X… it means he’s going to do X.

    At least so far. That is why it’s going to be impossible for the DEMs to harvest “disappointed Trumpeteers.” They’ll have to get their votes elsewhere.

  119. Tina says:

    Oh, I cannot wait until the next Mulehead bombshell, i just love that he runs circles around trumps legal team. Do you remember the gsa emails?

    Rottie Rubbish.

  120. Chicon says:

    Mnw – Hawks looking like sellers at the trade deadline.

  121. Tina says:

    It was Bannon that made debate 2 happen. This was a critical game changer.

  122. NYCmike says:

    “For the first time in my life, I’ve found a politician I take at face value. If he says he’s going to do X… it means he’s going to do X.”

    -I have been lucky….this is the 2nd time.

    RUDY GIULIANI said what he would do, and da mned if he didn’t do it, at least most of what he said anyway!

    Small note: George Pataki COULD HAVE BEEN looked at the same way, BUT he allowed himself to be “moderated”. YES, HE WAS WAY BETTER than Cuomo, or any other Democrat, but he could have been like Rudy, in fact, he could have been better!

    Missed opportunity for Republicans, long-term.

  123. mnw says:

    Chicon

    Deep denial here about the Bluz. Can’t bear to watch lately.

    Hawks sellers? They have the Cups to prove they know what they’re doing.

  124. Trump says:

    Mulehead investgation is going to get hotter. Trump is getting a little triggered.

  125. Trump says:

    Trump listens to Dershowits a bit too much. It will end badly.

  126. Chicon says:

    Not the real Poster Trump, imo.

  127. Trump says:

    Where’s little blobbie been lately? Back on the boat to lala land.

  128. NYCmike says:

    http://thehill.com/homenews/senate/366699-quiet-jockeying-for-mccain-seat-angers-republicans

    -This reminds me of a story from the Warren Buffett book, “Snowball”.

    His father had been a Representative in Nebraska, elected 3 or 4 times, I believe. When he was NOT in office, one of the incumbent Senators had a stroke on the last day to file for the primary for that position, which he would not have if the incumbent had maintained his health.

    Out of respect for the Senator, he waited for the death announcement, which came after the government office had closed for the day. So, thinking the deadline was midnight that night, he drove to the house of the Secretary of State to try and file with him. That man refused to accept it.

    Since it was not accepted, the Republican Party was left to pick a replacement….they did not pick Buffett’s dad, who was a bit of an oddball. He had lost his chance for the seat due to his respect for the dying.

  129. Blobbie says:

    John Thune calls on Trump to quit.

    This has an similar feel to Akin. Unanimous view he should quit, but the candidate is in a dream world and won’t.

  130. Blobbie says:

    Philip Rucker ?@PhilipRucker · 43s43 seconds ago

    A source close to Trump camp told me Pence and his team are “absolutely apoplectic,” “melting down” and “inconsolable.”

  131. Blobbie says:

    According to the WaPo, Ben Carson had a long talk with Trump this morning and encouraged him to stay in the race.

    Question for the former Carson supporters. Are you people the biggest idiots ever?

  132. Blobbie says:

    Bitterlaw says:

    I think we should stop having primaries. We can just have Robbie choose all candidates.

    – Your sanctimonious butthurt these days is really something to behold.

    That said, I’d do a much better job of picking candidates than you. I never would have gotten near that fat liberal toad Chris Christie.

  133. Blobbie says:

    I argued non-stop this Spring Romney should have run as a third party candidate.

    Is there any doubt left Mitt would have won? I think not.

  134. Blobbie says:

    Wow, I hope everyone has a chance to read what Trump said about immigration. It’s basically Jeb Bush’s immigration position.

  135. Blobbie says:

    Extinction event. There’s no surviving this.

    Clinton now leads Trump by at leat 10 points in states that account for 298 electora votes http://talkingpointsmemo.com/election/2016/us-president … via @TPM

  136. Blobbie says:

    Looking at the new FL Senate polls, I have to say I think Rubio might lose.

  137. NYCmike says:

    In current events:

    “”I don’t want to get into loyalty, but I will tell you that, I will say this: Holder protected President Obama. Totally protected him,” Trump said.

    “When you look at the things that they did, and Holder protected the president. And I have great respect for that, I’ll be honest.””

    This should trigger some people.

    http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/holder-slams-trumps-comments-on-justice-department/ar-BBHuAbS?li=BBnb7Kz&ocid=DELLDHP

  138. Chicon says:

    150 – just a little misunderstanding on the role of the AG. The AG is the nation’s lawyer; and is there to implement the President’s priorities, but not to protect the President. Perhaps Trump meant he thinks Holder protected Obama from a political pov, which is fine.

  139. NYCmike says:

    Chicon,

    Yes, I believe Trump meant Holder protected Obama, due to the (potentially) illegal things they were all doing.

  140. NYCmike says:

    Read that list, and then hear MD, Robbie and “CG” once again say “I am a conservative and I will (#)NEVER(TRUMP) vote for that man!”.

  141. SanDiegoCitizen says:

    Many scientists are now predicting that the earth is about to enter a cooling period. This has the advocates of global warming concerned. James Hansen, one of the gurus of the global warming, is now saying that a new ice age could be caused by global warming.

    “James Hansen, former NASA GISS Director, published a paper which suggests global warming will trigger a short ice agein the near future (see the graph at the top of the page).
    … Global temperature becomes an unreliable diagnostic of planetary condition as the ice melt rate increases. Global energy imbalance (Fig. 15b) is a more meaningful measure of planetary status as well as an estimate of the climate forcing change required to stabilize climate.”

    It does not look like 2018 will be a good year for Al Gore.

  142. SanDiegoCitizen says:

    It is interesting that after Trump took a hard line against Iran, there are now riots again. Obama’s policies of coddling the Iranian extremists may have been counter-productive — and discouraged opposition to the Iranian regime.

  143. JulStol says:

    Further proof the nation is dying https://trib.al/XAPH9uT

  144. NYCmike says:

    “It is interesting that after Trump took a hard line against Iran, there are now riots again.”

    -As predicted, Trump is causing violence everywhere in the world!/s

  145. Bitterlaw says:

    Jul is doing his Charles impersonation.

    Of course, he dreams of an America consumed in flames as he fires off his last rounds at his alleged enemies.

    Jul – Man up and get married already.

  146. NYCmike says:

    “Jul – Man up and get married already.”

    -Maybe Jul and Wes can get married on the same day, at the same place, so Hedgehoggers can consolidate their trips for the weddings….

  147. SanDiegoCitizen says:

    Have a feeling many annual budgets for trolling have run out, so we will not see our regular trolls under the new year.

  148. mnw says:

    A thing that is useful to remember & easy to forget: our most dangerous adversaries, NK & Iran, have no popular support.

    So what? “what” is: In Iran, 60% of population is under 30(!!), and youth Unemployment is… 40%.

    Dyn-O-Mite! Whoa!

    I remember the blue jeans and Beatles records mania in Moscow in the 60s & 70s. The Iranians are just as steeped in Western pop culture. They want some.

    Ceausescu is beckoning. Sooner or later.

  149. Tina says:

    Yes, trump is causing ciolence in the world. He ismchanging the world for the worst.

    Rottir Rubbish.

  150. Tgca says:

    Per Breitbart article (see 157)

    Study: 27 Percent of California Youth Are Gender ‘Nonconforming’

    “However, “gender nonconforming” young people were found to be more than twice as likely to have psychological problems than those comfortable with their biological sex.”

    Really? You need a study to tell you this? Hey, we all have our issues but clearly confusion of this sort leading to psychological problems is hardly unexpected.

    I do question the 27%. It seems ridiculously high, and suggests to me that there is some hidden agenda here in pushing this study.

  151. mnw says:

    Tgca

    Hidden agenda? Me too.

  152. Trump says:

    Groundwork for 2020 includes a bad round in 2018. Dems make big gains but they are going to ovr reach. Trump will play them and the GOP.

  153. mnw says:

    In contrast to Iran, Saudi Arabia is doing it the right way, or at least trying to: Let up as much as possible before your govt is under pressure to do do.

    And KEEP ON letting up as fast as possible. The middle class is your friend.

    Even doing it the right way, still a long shot probably.

    People laugh at the Kingdom for just now letting women drive. They shouldn’t. That’s a very significant reform of itself, & a clear signal where the govt intends to go.

  154. Trump says:

    What is coming down road is bigger than Demwits or GOPe or rule of law.

  155. mnw says:

    Trump troll:

    STFU

  156. Tgca says:

    If 27% of men are confused, I’m wondering which of our HHR residents are secretly Trannies. Hmmm…

  157. Trump says:

    Prez needs to fire Moldy Muehler and tell the libs to suck it.

  158. SanDiegoCitizen says:

    164. “Study: 27 Percent of California Youth Are Gender ‘Nonconforming’”

    If being a Martian was trendy and cool, something like 27% of youth would claim to be from Mars. Its social game playing.

  159. Trump says:

    I visit the Manhole after work sometimes but I’m not confused.

  160. JulStol says:

    Bitter,

    At this point I dream of my investments doing well enough to move to Hungary or Poland and wish all of you here in the states the best of luck.

  161. Bitterlaw says:

    Running away, Jul? Weak.

    Most people don’t run from America to Eastern Europe for more freedom.

  162. mnw says:

    BL

    Not until recently, but I think relocating there now has a lot to recommend it. I decided during Zero’s regime that I would formulate a contingency escape plan. The trick is to get out early enough that the getting is still good.

  163. Bitterlaw says:

    I hit the lottery the day I was born in America. There is no circumstance that would make me leave.

  164. mnw says:

    If you enroll in a Swiss University, & if you have a little money & behave yourself, you can parlay that into Swiss citizenship in 5-10 years.

    Former Rep. Michelle Bachmann & her husband, both wealthy CPAs, were always careful to maintain dual U.S./Swiss citizenship, as I recall.

  165. JulStol says:

    Both Hungary and Poland are preserving their cultural identity. The Czech Republic might also be worth looking into but I have ancestry in the other 2.

  166. mnw says:

    Lots of Americans retire to Poland because of their family ancestral connections, & the low cost of living, I’ve read.

  167. mnw says:

    Jul

    I think your plan makes a lot of sense. I’ve never been to the Czech Republic, but I’ve heard wonderful things about it.

    A lot of places that Americans move to because of the low cost of living? Once the Americans get there, the cost of living goes up! Coast Rica is one example. It used to be dirt cheap. Now? The cost of living is pretty similar to what it is here.

  168. mnw says:

    sb Costa Rica

  169. Proud Obamacon says:

    I was so relieved to hear that our Groper in Chief debunked the Global Warming myth!!!

    Hurray

    I just had a burger, that must mean that there is no world hunger either!

    Woww LOL

    WORST.PRESIDENT.EVAHHH

  170. JulStol says:

    MNW,

    Yep. My great grandmother was born in East Prussia. The town is now located in modern day Poland. We visited it for her 90th birthday when I was about 10. Beautiful from what I recall. My father was apparently of Hungarian gypsy ancestry. Never really knew the man, but I’ll take it.

  171. mnw says:

    Equador is the new Costa Rica right now, btw.

  172. mnw says:

    I’d love to visit Eastern Europe, Jul.

    I’ve looked at some of the Viking cruises (on the rivers), although I generally don’t like cruises. Prefer self-directed motor trips.

  173. Bitterlaw says:

    Cultural identity? Which one? America has never had a constant one. Most of my ancestors were not welcome for the first few versions.

  174. Bitterlaw says:

    Enjoy giving up your rights, Jul.

  175. Bitterlaw says:

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overview_of_gun_laws_by_nation

    I wonder if Jul would pass the psychological tests needed to own a gun in his preferred countries.

  176. Blobbie says:

    Prefer self-directed motor trips.
    ————————————–
    not a good idea in eastern europe

    much better to get in a good tour, with an established company.

    these are not countries that you want to not speak the language in. you become an immediate target.

    now don’t get me wrong, lots of people speak english, and 99% are friendly to americans, but it is the 1% that make a living off of tourists that you have to beware of …

    source: have travelled around the world

  177. Blobbie says:

    Enjoy giving up your rights
    ———————————

    on paper they actually have pretty good rights. after the ussr fell they adopted constitutions and institutions similar to the united states and other western democracies

  178. mnw says:

    I have a close friend from work who has retained dual Irish/U.S. citizenship his entire life. He plans to retire to Ireland because he’s nutty in love with the place.

    Is he on the verge of ”giving up his freedom”?

  179. Paul says:

    Since my family arrived in Jamestown in the 1600s. I figure I’m almost native to these lands.

    By the way… my family always had a tale about one of our ancestors having an Indian wife. My uncle did his DNA and it didn’t show any Native American. I guess my family story is as good as Warrens.

  180. Blobbie says:

    Ireland is also not Eastern Europe

  181. mnw says:

    Blobbie 190

    I did it in Peru & Costa Rica already, plus Western Europe. I think I’ll be OK. Anyway I have no immediate plans.

    Next summer, taking the kids to the beach, God willing. Let the sun heal my knee!

  182. Bitterlaw says:

    I will always be thankful that the potato famine got my family to leave Ireland.

  183. Paul says:

    I heard Nova Scotia was looking for more people to migrate there….. if you don’t mind the cold. I would like to go fossil hunting for Carboniferous plants in Nova Scotia.

  184. Blobbie says:

    Western Europe is still fine

    Eastern Europe is not

    unless you know the local language

  185. mnw says:

    Well, when & if I try it, I’ll let u know how it worked out.

    There are over 75000 American expats in Costa Rica— I suspect a lot more, but that’s the usual estimate.

    CR is definitely NOT the place where “you can live like a millionaire on $50000/yr.”

  186. lisab says:

    BREAKING NEWS: Jailed pervert Anthony Weiner had CLASSIFIED emails belonging to wife Huma Abedin on his laptop – which the FBI seized after he sexted 15-year-old girl

    The FBI found 2,800 of Huma Abedin’s work-related emails and documents on disgraced husband Anthony Weiner’s computer

    They found five classified emails about delicate talks with Middle East leaders including some from Israel, Hamas, Saudi Arabia and the Palestinian Authority

  187. Bitterlaw says:

    Where is Jason? He must have an opinion on whether it is better to live abroad or in the US since he has lived around the world.

  188. lisab says:

    WALLINGFORD — Back in September, Ed Ruszczyk posted a large sign outside his bar which read, “Due to the NFL’s disrespect to our nation’s flag, this sports bar will no longer televise any NFL games.”

    He kept his promise all season, despite a loss of business.

    Ruszczyk, owner of Grand Central Sports Bar, 76 Quinnipiac St., stopped showing NFL games because he was upset some players were not standing for the national anthem.

    “I feel that the NFL is disrespecting the flag,” Ruszczyk told the Record-Journal in September. “A lot of veterans died because of that flag, so that NFL players could make millions of dollars playing football. If you’re a true American, you shouldn’t watch it.”

  189. Bitterlaw says:

    I am a true American. I watch the NFL. Both are true.

    I respect the bar owner for his action.

  190. lisab says:

    anthony bourdain gets taught a lesson in haiti

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=144&v=P4g-I5GABrY

  191. jason says:

    Every place has its advantages and disadvantages… well, most anyway.

    CR is nice, I could live there. But I can’t afford to retire, so its moot.

  192. jason says:

    Looking at the new FL Senate polls, I have to say I think Rubio might lose.”

    Zzzzzzz…. I will worry about 2022 in 2022.

  193. Bitterlaw says:

    As the Amish say, “I will retire when scrapple makes itself.”

  194. lisab says:

    the republicans won’t make it to 2022 if they cannot win back texas in 2020, … or utah … or idaho … or arkansas … or georgia …

  195. Paul says:

    Texas will be in the Democratic column by 2020. That part is true.

  196. Paul says:

    Ruszczyk, owner of Grand Central Sports Bar, is an anti-American SOB>

  197. lisab says:

    now this lady knows how to make an old fashioned !!!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=107&v=GWeVRxR1qek

    i’d be on the floor!

  198. jason says:

    Good for Ruszcyk, he knows disrespect for the flag and the military when he sees it.

    I notice the NFL is investing millions on ads showing how wonderful the players are and how many causes they support.

    It won’t work. Eventually, disrespecting the anthem and the flag and military is going to be reflected in their paychecks.

    Book it.

  199. lisab says:

    i like bourbon … it is my new favorite drink surpassing my old favourites rum, and irish whiskey

    (not to be confused with rum and irish whiskey)

    but mamma mia she put something like 8 ounces in that glass !!!

  200. jason says:

    Actually Trump lost votes in Texas because many believed him to be a New York Democrat.

    Probably won’t happen in 2020, so I expect him to win by a bigger margin than in 2016.

  201. jason says:

    Bitter “can’t do anything” about the Communist Pope or the America hating NFL players.

    So he sticks his head in the sand and gives them a pass.

  202. lisab says:

    paul, corey (cg), robbie, obamaconn are the new leftists

    you cannot disagree with them, or you are unamerican, or fascist, or a white supremacist etc.

    which means they, the dems, do not have to consider your opinions when making policy decisions. you are horrible people and therefore don’t count

  203. mnw says:

    Paul supertroll is counting on demographic change moving TX to blue.

    We all know that once a trend starts, it’s unstoppable!

    /s

  204. lisab says:

    i remember a time when disrespecting the flag would get you beaten up

  205. Paul says:

    Lisab: Go to Cuba, you socialist you.

  206. Paul says:

    Disrespecting those who respectfully protest is un-American.

  207. Paul says:

    Fabian socialists are wolves in sheep’s clothing. You can’t trust Lisab 🙂

  208. lisab says:

    Lisab: Go to Cuba, you socialist you.
    ————————————–

    i am not a marxist, they would shoot me

  209. lisab says:

    Disrespecting those who respectfully protest is un-American.
    ——————————————-

    than why are you disrespecting him?

  210. Cash Cow TM says:

    Say….

    Walt and his Missus are planning a trip to Costa Rico in February…

    Maybe they are planning to relocate…
    and leave my behind behind?

  211. mnw says:

    Why not go along, Cow?

    Spectacular place.

  212. Paul says:

    The Marxists have all been driven off the island, fleeing to Vermont. So, you’ll be fine.

  213. lisab says:

    and obviously — not a fabian

  214. lisab says:

    soooooooooo … tell us a little about yourself paul

  215. Paul says:

    Sorry I thought you said you were Fabian. My bad.

  216. Paul says:

    I’m an Illinois small business owner and Democrat. I’ve been around on HHR since 2003. I remember posts about Howard Dean’s scream about when I first came across the site.

  217. Paul says:

    And I often say stupid stuff just for fun.

  218. Paul says:

    At one point I was “Indy” and then I was “Repub4Kerry”. LOL.

  219. SanDiegoCitizen says:

    Congratulations Lisab. New England has set another record, the highest natural gas prices in the world. Seems the opposition to pipelines has caused a massive shortage in gas in New England, so they are turning to burning old instead. Also coal use is up to 6%; all those renewables you spent billions on are providing about 10% of your power

    Nuclear is providing 25% of your power, but your planning on closing your nuclear plants, so guess you will have to use more coal and oil.
    __________

    “Oil is set to become the largest source of electricity in New England on Thursday for the first time in almost three years after temperatures plunged well below freezing.

    Plants burning fuel oil accounted for just over 30 percent of the region’s power supply during the morning, according to ISO New England Inc., the local grid operator. Oil typically makes up under 1 percent of the fuel mix on most days.

    A lack of pipeline capacity has constrained gas flows to the region in recent years, causing prices to surge during severe cold snaps. New England became the world’s priciest gas market earlier this week, making it more economic for generators to switch to fuel oil and coal.

    “It’s a perennial problem,” Kit Konolige, a New York-based utilities analyst for Bloomberg Intelligence, said by phone Thursday. “When it gets cold, there’s not enough gas for both home heating and for power generation. Then you need to fall back on oil.”

    Oil produced 5,066 megawatts of power in the region at about 10 a.m., compared with 3,516 megawatts from gas and 4,027 megawatts from nuclear, according to the grid operator. The last time oil accounted for 30 percent of an entire day’s power-generating supply was in February 2015.”

  220. lisab says:

    fabian’s believe capitalism is fundamentally bad for democracy

    whereas, a follower of skinner views it as the most efficient way to manage society’s assets — so long as monopolies and oligopolies are squashed.

    were i queen, every mcdonald’s/bank of america branch/walmart/any other giant corp would have to have each local branch locally owned by a local family, who would be the powerful partner in the franchise arrangement — meaning they could change franchises quickly and easily, so that the corporate centers would have to treat them well.

    i would invest social security in the stock market , say a billion a week, and then 80 years later split the profits, etc.

    basically, use the markets to efficiently spread wealth to as many people as possible

  221. lisab says:

    in 80 years a billion would be expected to double 8 times … or be $256 billion … divided by the 80 year olds who were born the same week as you

  222. SanDiegoCitizen says:

    236. “in 80 years a billion would be expected to double 8 times … or be $256 billion.”

    Maybe, but one major stock market crash and it could wipe out any gain made, as well as a portion of the sums initially invested. I know too many “brilliant” investors who went into bankruptcy to believe a lot of the stock market hype. Am sure most of us remember 2008.

  223. lisab says:

    although i said stock market, the traditional “safe portfolio” divides investments into

    20% stocks (S&P 500 or wiltshire 5000 (sp?))
    20% corporate bonds
    20% foreign investments (stocks and bonds)
    20% real estate
    20% other

    it has been notoriously safe and beaten other “professionally run” portfolios consistently

    the one thing it cannot beat of course is a great depression, but it holds up better than other portfolios because it is so diversified

    and … you have to invest somewhere

  224. lisab says:

    the nice thing about such a plan from a social security perspective is:

    a.) every stock crash we have had has come back in a year or so, but for social security you would be paying out the funds over roughly 20 years with a diminishing client group … as they passed away … so you should be able to survive even a 50% crash

    b.) theoretically, you would be investing in each citizen from birth on the assumption that they and the usa will do well.

    the investment would spur the usa economy

  225. Cash Cow TM says:

    Cow hears they really like beef
    down in Costa Rica…

  226. lisab says:

    President Donald J. Trump Proclaims January 2018 as National Slavery and Human Trafficking Prevention Month

  227. Tgca says:

    212

    Sloppy old fashioned preparation and served incorrectly. Old fashioned are served in old fashioned glasses and not 16 oz glasses. As a certified mixologist, I never served an old fashioned that large in my bartending days or the old folks (yes, it’s an old folks drink) would have smacked me in the head.

  228. Tgca says:

    Well, I will always be thankful to the drug trade and welfare got my dad to leave Puerto Rico for NJ.

    196
    Bitterlaw says:
    December 29, 2017 at 9:41 pm
    I will always be thankful that the potato famine got my family to leave Ireland.

  229. Tgca says:

    I’ve done my DNA testing twice with 2 different services. Pretty similar results. Largely Mediterranean, eastern Euro, a bit middle eastern and like 10% black. Now that explains a lot.

  230. Bitterlaw says:

    Jason does not understand the difference between being able to change something and not being able to change something.

    I did go to Mass on Christmas Eve. Sue me.

    The priest did not make any announcement on when the next Papal primary will be conducted.

  231. jason says:

    The United States will be eternally thankful I left South America to come here.

  232. jason says:

    “The priest did not make any announcement on when the next Papal primary will be conducted.”

    Translation: we sheep are destined for slaughter and we accept our fate, and it won’t keep us from grazing today.

  233. jason says:

    About 25 percent of Americans can’t name a man or woman they admire most.”

    I would have voted for Bitter.

    Even though the Pope thinks he is corrupt and a horrible person because he expects to be compensated for his work, he turns the other cheek.

    Admirable.

  234. MichiganGuy says:

    Good to see things never change around here. I’ve been coming here for 4 years and Jason and Bitterlaw still fighting about the Catholic Church. lol

  235. Sheeple, Jr. says:

    Robbie,CG, ObamaCon and Paul:
    The Obama Administration alumni have repeatedly claimed that a Trump Presidency and, in particular, the decertification of the Iran Nuclear Agreement would make the current theocratic Iranian regime more popular with its inhabitants. Nothing but crickets from them over the past few days. Kerry and Obama sold the deal on a bevy of lies including that the $150 billion,UPFRONT hand-over of monies would mostly be spent on making the lives of the Iranian people better. It appears that the monies have been spent on military,nuclear and terrorism matters in addition to Ayatollahs’ self- enrichment!
    Will you now admit that the Iran Nuclear Agreement has been the worst deal since the Munich”Peace in Our Time” Agreement in 1937?

    ‘Death to Khamenei’: Anti-government protests continue in Iran [video]

  236. Sheeple, Jr. says:

    Gee, what a surprise that poster Paul lives in the Marxist paradise of Illinois- NOT. They deserve each other.
    Paul please stay there forever. Liberal migration from CA and the NorthEast have started to ruin States like Colorado, Virginia, GA etc.

  237. Sheeple, Jr. says:

    Senator Lindsay Graham(WOHO-SC)* pretty much claimed in a FOX News interview yesterday that the Steele Dossier was used for the FISA Warrant which started the whole Russia Collusion investigation. Here is what he said:

    “The back-story to the FISA warrant is the cornerstone. The back-story contains both the FBI and the DOJ scheme. Expose it, remove it, and the entire ‘muh Russia conspiracy’ collapses under the weight of sunlight…”

    * World Of His Own”

  238. mnw says:

    WOHO— I like that.

  239. Tina says:

    In that same interviiew, Goober said he learned about the improper wiretapping days ago. I wonder from whom? Sen Grassley?

    I knew of this last January.

    The origins of wiretapping trump occured ieven before when he became the r nominee. I would argue it started in 2011.

    If you notice, mike rodgers goes to trump tower after the election, when trump, transition team had meetings. After rodgers meeting that day, all subsequent transition team meetings are held in Mar A Lago, Rodgers tipped them off. Obbumbler wanted to fire Rodgers.

  240. Tina says:

    eeted
    Omri Ceren
    Omri Ceren
    @omriceren
    ·
    14h
    Bookmark this so you have it over the next 48-72 hours, as echo chamber that sold the Iran deal spins up to characterize the protests “just about the economy”

    This is what you get when obumbker paid ransom money of billions to the mad mulahs and the hallabalooh.

    I am sure young iranians just want peace and westernization. Plus, it does not help when the mulkah armies got clocked in syria and ther places. Many high level generals done away with.

  241. Tina says:

    Larry Schweikart
    Larry Schweikart
    @LarrySchweikart
    ·
    3m
    Day Two of the New Iranian Revolution as US media looks for vans and trots out 10-month-old stories about a David Clarke search warrant.

  242. Bitterlaw says:

    When Jason tells me what I am supposed to do about the Pope, I will listen. Of course, he will not propose anything because he knows there is nothing I can do except switch relions – which I will never do.

  243. Ron N says:

    I know the media never wanted to do there job during the last administration other than cheer him on. That might have been the most corrupt adm. they turned everything into a arm of the left. If media would have put a quarter the effort in to doing there job what else would we known.

  244. Hugh says:

    242.most old fashions are poorly prepared. Bourbon rye, bitters, orange spritzed avoiding the white rind which is bitter, very small amount of simple syrup or a dissolved sugar cube. No fruit muddling no soda water no cherry juice. Ugh. I have to these useless bartenders on how to make. They turned it into a girls drink.

  245. Cash Cow TM says:

    11 degrees below zero here in Northern WISCO.

    Minus 11.7 to be exact.
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    Hope everyone had a delightful Christmas and that DJT “Made Christmas Great Again.”

  246. Cash Cow TM says:

    What did the last two leftover hotdogs say when they were wrapped up in Reynolds Wrap and put in the fridge?

    Curses…FOILED again!

    🙂

  247. jason says:

    So Bitter will continue to tacitly support a Pope that thinks capitalism is the root of all evil and that we should turn to Marxism to combat global warming.

    As far as what you can do, you can first admit the Pope is a Marxist.

    You can tell everyone in your congregation including the priest, the bishop, the cardinal, fellow church goers that you think Marxism is not a friend of Catholicism, and that the MSM sycophants that like the Pope because he is a Marxist and a convenient tool for their agenda don’t like anything else about the Catholic Church and are not your friends.

    You can say you won’t make any more contributions until the Marxist Pope is replaced.

    More later, but you have enough to get started.

  248. Chicon says:

    So, it’s been a week since the tax vote, and Little Marco is expressing concern that it went too far to help corporations. What a leader…..

  249. jason says:

    Paul is even stupider than I thought.

    As a small business owner, he should support Republicans that try to keep small business taxes low and regulations that choke small business under control. He support a pro-business, pro-growth, pro-free enterprisxe, low tax, low regulation agenda. Nobody is more anti-small business than the Democrats.

    But it’s obvious Paul is not a deep thinker.

  250. Tina says:

    Does marco have a concern about letting the daca yute stay here, or amnesty?

  251. jason says:

    Rubio said the tax plan could be better, but it’s “significantly” better than the status quo.

    Not only that, he voted for it.

    But if you want to litmus test every Senator so he thinks exactly like you or you will call him Little Marco, be my guest.

    “That isn’t going to create dramatic economic growth. (But) there’s a lot of things in the bill that I have supported for a long time (such as) doubling the Child Tax Credit. And it is better — significantly better — than the current code”

    That’s good enough for me.

  252. Chicon says:

    Marco is simply covering his rear. He voted for it, and also signals to those that don’t like it that he didn’t really like it. Just a week later. I’ve always liked him, but this is an example of what people don’t like in politicians.

  253. Phil says:

    2009

    Texas will be in the Democratic column by 2020?

    You are either drunk or flat out delusional.

  254. Tina says:

    Doubling the chikd credit will not increase economic growth, cutting the corpoate taxes will.

  255. Wes says:

    Absolutely.

    http://www.cnn.com/2017/12/30/politics/worst-candidate-2017/index.html

    Naturally Steve Bannon backed him for Senate.

  256. Tina says:

    So, cnn is radio sikent on the Iranian uprising. They are focused on sheriff clarke and a white truck.

  257. Bitterlaw says:

    Jason – The Pope’s politics do not change the only reason I go to church – to receive the body and blood of Christ in holy communion. If that is tacit support, GFY.

    How somebody who grew up to in South America could believe that a Catholic has any influence on the Pope is amazing to me. You rarely see such proud ignorance of reality.

  258. lisab says:

    Paul is even stupider than I thought.

    As a small business owner, he should support Republicans that try to keep small business taxes low and regulations that choke small business under control.
    ————————————-

    if he has a micro business, then he is better off now. under obama he would qualify for free insurance, food stamps etc., and basically pocket cash the irs cannot trace back to him.

    MANY people on food stamps actually run a business under the table. one guy i knew used to traffic in nicotene gum, formula, diapers, and laundry detergent. basically selling wic and snap stuff under the table.

  259. lisab says:

    under the new tax rules, with double the exemption, it is less worth it to hide income as you would not be taxed on it anyway

    and without the tax for not buying insurance, it is likely insurance companies will be willing to charge low amounts for premium insurance.

    now if you work under the table you can get gold plated insurance for a tiny amount, because you are subsidized as someone who is “poor”

  260. lisab says:

    when we were between jobs, when i left illinois but before my job started in ny, i had the best insurance i have ever had from massachusetts … completely free

    there is no wealth check, only an income check, so even though we had money in the bank we got everything free

  261. Bitterlaw says:

    Completely free to you, lisab. Others paid for it.

  262. Mr.Vito says:

    “…the only reason I go to church – to receive the body and blood of Christ in holy communion.”

    You can do that at most any church. Is the Catholicism important to you, or are you just comfortable with your church?

  263. Bitterlaw says:

    My friend battling breast cancer has completed 4 rounds of chemo and has 2 to go. She is bald and sick. Politics is so unimportant when compared to real life.

  264. Mr.Vito says:

    I will be trying Medishare this year.

  265. Mr.Vito says:

    “Politics is so unimportant when compared to real life.”

    Except when it exacerbates real life problems…

  266. Bitterlaw says:

    280 The Catholic Church is the only one for me. Transubstantiation is my belief.

    I’m not like many people. I do not go to church to see family or friends. My wife and children will only go on Christmas. If I go at any other time, I am alone. I also take no comfort in it. I generally sit seething at God over my mother’s death OR I think about hating my mom’s alcoholic destruction of 2 generations.

    I do not go often.

  267. Mr.Vito says:

    A new truck has been caught meddling with CNN.

    https://i.ytimg.com/vi/ArKckzLPM0M/maxresdefault.jpg

  268. lisab says:

    Completely free to you, lisab. Others paid for it.
    —————————————–

    exactly … which is why i am sure paul likes the obama system … lots of room for cheating

    though i was not about to look a gift horse in the mouth … i would end such systems.

  269. Albert Hodges says:

    280

    Completely and totally wrong. Only in Catholic and Orthodox Churches do the faithful receive the Body and Blood of Christ. Any other denomination offers their versions which are not the Real Presence.

  270. Mr.Vito says:

    That stinks Mr. Bitter… why are you mad at God about your mom?

  271. Bitterlaw says:

    If it would cure my friend, you could double my taxes and give Hillary 3 terms as President.

    I do not share my fear with my wife and daughter. I expect my friend to die for one reason – she is the kind of loving, caring, decent person who will be desperately missed. Miserable bastards live on. Good people often die too young.

  272. lisab says:

    If it would cure my friend, you could double my taxes and give Hillary 3 terms as President.
    ————————-

    and i like puppies 🙂

  273. Mr.Vito says:

    “Completely and totally wrong. Only in Catholic and Orthodox Churches do the faithful receive the Body and Blood of Christ. Any other denomination offers their versions which are not the Real Presence.”

    It is neither completely nor totally wrong… it depends on interpretation of ‘receive’. That is why I SPECIFICALLY asked whether the Catholicism (transubstantiation) was important to him. We didn’t need third party help to understand one another, as you can see.

  274. Hugh says:

    280. I think most Christians other than Catholics and orthodox faiths do not believe in transformation.

  275. lisab says:

    It is neither completely nor totally wrong
    ———————————-

    it pretty much is as far as catholics and orthodox churches are concerned

  276. Bitterlaw says:

    Mr. Vito – Despite ruining my brother and sister and my bother’s children with alcohol, my mother was good person to the outside world. Charitable. Visited and prayed with sick people. Served as a Eucharistic Minister. I thought she earned a little less suffering at the end but God did not agree. Unconscious and gasping for breath for 2 days at the end is not a good memory. She deserved lung cancer for decades of smoking. A little mercy at the end would have been appreciated.

  277. Albert Hodges says:

    291

    You may not have needed third party help to understand what he was saying but you definitely need help to understand what receiving the Body and Blood of Christ means if you think that receiving Him in this manner is possible outside of validly ordained priests and bishops.

  278. Bitterlaw says:

    When I was in college, I dated a Methodist (now she is a non-Christian Quaker). She took me to her church. My mother almost had a stroke when she found out that I had communion there instead of going to Mass.

    Personally, I respect all religions. I respect Islam even if there are things I disagree about. I do not understand why women would choose to be subservient in that faith but that is their choice. I could say the same thing about Orthodox Judaism or other faiths.

  279. mnw says:

    lisab 286

    “If you’re buying, I’ll have prime rib.”

    Not a thing wrong with that— you’d be foolish not to take it.

  280. Hugh says:

    Nyt bows say Papadopoulos started the fisa warrants not dossier another cya report for fbi and doj. If what Papadopoulos said is true it still seems way short of what is needed to spy on political enemies. I suspect nyt will have to walk this theory back in due time.

  281. Hugh says:

    Now says

  282. Mr.Vito says:

    “it pretty much is as far as catholics and orthodox churches are concerned”

    Exactly the point.

    “need help to understand what receiving the Body and Blood of Christ means if you think that receiving Him in this manner is possible outside of validly ordained priests and bishops.”

    If you do not think I understand the dogma of transubstantiation, even with my explanation and how Bitter replied, you are just stubborn, and can ride out on the high horse you rode in on.

  283. Bitterlaw says:

    Sweet. A holy war at HHR. It has been awhile. I would invite Wes but I do not believe in atheism.

  284. Mr.Vito says:

    Do your wife or your kids go to synagogue?

  285. Albert Hodges says:

    300

    You may, in fact, understand the dogma of transubstantiation, but if you tell others that they receive the Body and Blood of Christ in any other denominations besides the Catholic/Orthodox Churches, then you are either confused and lying to them. You pick.

  286. Bitterlaw says:

    Mr. Vito and I understood each other. A-holes share a bond.

  287. Mr.Vito says:

    My mother-in-law went the same way from the smoking. I only blame her, though. We told her that is how it would end repeatedly.

  288. Albert Hodges says:

    I grew up Quaker. If I had not become Catholic, I would have become an Orthodox Jew. These are the only two faiths that make any real sense and have a historical claim to Truth.

  289. lisab says:

    “If you do not think I understand the dogma of transubstantiation,”

    i do not know what you understand,

    i was merely stating the catholic church’s position on the matter

  290. Bitterlaw says:

    My mother-in-law also died from lung cancer. On the other hand, my dad has been smoking since FDR was President. He does have emphysema but he’s 90. No point in quitting now.

  291. Bitterlaw says:

    Al – I leave “truth” to God. I suspect most people will be surprised at how wrong we all were. With my luck, Jesus will say, “Sorry. You were not a good Christian. Maybe Buddha has a slot open.”

  292. Mr.Vito says:

    “… but if you tell others that they receive the Body and Blood of Christ in any other denominations besides the Catholic/Orthodox Churches, then you are either confused and lying to them. You pick.”

    No. It means you do not accept symbolism, substitution, or any other interpretation of the Lord’s Supper… or you simply do not understand that others use this language as they take communion. Bitter did not say the specific dogma of transubstantiation, and so I asked.

    The fact that you keep going on about it is revealing.

  293. Mr.Vito says:

    Lisa… you’ll see that was not directed to you if you reread the post.

  294. Mr.Vito says:

    “I suspect most people will be surprised at how wrong we all were.”

    Bingo.

  295. lisab says:

    With my luck, Jesus will say, “Sorry. You were not a good Christian. Maybe Buddha has a slot open.”
    ———————————-

    or … “sorry … the jews were right”

  296. Mr.Vito says:

    I never would have suspected Albert thinks all other denominations are heretical and ignorant. 😉

  297. Mr.Vito says:

    Are you doing anything religious these days, Lisab?

  298. Mr.Vito says:

    Other than torturing Robbie religiously?

  299. Bitterlaw says:

    My wife said she will put in a good word for me in Heaven but I don’t know. It would be her chance to escape.

  300. Bitterlaw says:

    Lisab is a lapsed Wiccan.

  301. Mr.Vito says:

    Back-slider, eh?

  302. lisab says:

    “Are you doing anything religious these days”

    i do not share my religious beliefs or activities, or lack thereof, online.

    my position has been and continues to be that our laws should be secular and as much as possible backed by science not by religion.

  303. lisab says:

    Other than torturing Robbie religiously?
    ——————————————-

    i only do that when i am bored …

  304. Mr.Vito says:

    Lisab is religiously silent on her own religious beliefs.

  305. Mr.Vito says:

    Maybe Robbie will get a reprieve when the holidays end then…

  306. lisab says:

    yes … i find that political discussion is rarely informed by religion

    and leads to silly things like when dems say that voting for trump or moore or basically any other republican is against jesus

    but voting for obama or hillary or any dem is great

    or vice versa

  307. lisab says:

    Maybe Robbie will get a reprieve when the holidays end then…
    ————————————–

    most likely … the holidays really screw up my schedule

  308. Cash Cow TM says:

    Bitter,

    Maybe you need to take a knee outside the church door before
    You enter to worship. Protest and leave the anger outside so it does not get into the way of worship.

  309. Cash Cow TM says:

    Cow is a member of the Mthodist herd.
    Was previously Presbyterian.

  310. Mr.Vito says:

    Well some people just like to share things about themselves. There are certainly many people who do not make their political arguments religious in nature. But, most people’s politics will be based in some set of moral principles.

  311. lisab says:

    But, most people’s politics will be based in some set of moral principles.
    ————————–

    no argument there.

    however, since we do not share the moral principles, in my opinion, it is better to keep laws secular

    i do not need to resort to a religious text to outlaw murder, rape, etc.

    thus, my long standing support of gay marriage.

    i can find no reason backed by science to outlaw it, and many reasons, e.g. the benefits of supporting monogamy as a society, to support it.

  312. messy says:

    2,etc. If you remember, the Dems got CREAMED in 2012. Stop saying this is a positive thing for Trump……

  313. messy says:

    331. Excuse me, 2010

  314. Mr.Vito says:

    Only racists disapproved of Obama. Only racists approve of Trump. Racism has dropped 7% since 2009. YES!

  315. lisab says:

    #333 unfortunately, such arguments are the new dogma of the dems

  316. NYCmike says:

    “I do not need to resort…..”

    -Thankfully, Moses received those tablets before lisab had a chance to decide not to accept them.

  317. lisab says:

    if the only reason you won’t murder someone is that the bible forbids you … then you have “issues”

  318. Mr.Vito says:

    “Thankfully, Moses received those tablets before lisab had a chance to decide not to accept them.”

    The Jews believe the knowledge of good and evil predates the tablets by quite a bit.

  319. Mr.Vito says:

    There are plenty of scientific justifications for murder.

  320. Mr.Vito says:

    killing, really, since murder today is connotatively unjustified and thus requires an already established moral code…

  321. lisab says:

    allowing murder in society not only violates the rights of the murderee …

    it often degenerates into blood fueds and revenge murders

    thus for both reasons are bad for society

    if you hold individual liberties as a positive good.

  322. Mr.Vito says:

    And besides, God Himself kills and destroys, and so the law establishes what is already known innately to humankind (see Cain)– that it is not something He permits of His people to take upon themselves.

  323. lisab says:

    “unjustified” merely requires a legal code

    but if you wish to speak of killing, as opposed to murder,

    it does open, at least in theory, the possibility of euthanasia. however, i see the possibility of too many abuses to support it.

  324. Mr.Vito says:

    Positive goods, rights, and societal benefit is based upon morality and human ethos, of course. Not science.

  325. Mr.Vito says:

    A legal code can certainly allow for murder… and many fiction books explore this… like the ones that have a day where anything goes.

    Someone who is okay with that legal code is the one with issues in most people’s minds.

  326. Mr.Vito says:

    It is quite scientific to argue that we breed and kill humans for scientific testing for the positive societal good… we can leave them in a comatose state.

    Fortunately, in this country, we have individual rights endowed by a Creator, and this nonsense went out, at least for now, with the Nazis.

  327. SanDiegoCitizen says:

    330. “But, most people’s politics will be based in some set of moral principles.’

    Actually, view politics the same way as hiring a plumber. You want someone who is skilled at their job. Administrative skills, and an understanding of the economy and government are more important than the claim of good morals for a politician. The politicians who claim to support moral values make me suspicious; Roy Moore comes to mind.

    I have political views based on my views of economics and administration; others have differing views. Am not so presumptuous to claim my views are the “moral” views.

  328. Mr.Vito says:

    Of course, we would derive more benefit by not giving in to our ethos and not putting them in a comatose state, so they can better communicate with us and observe the reactions and effects more quickly and reliably.

  329. Mr.Vito says:

    I am not the least bit interested a plumber who will fix my pipes, but steal my TV, shoot me in the head, and rape my daughter on the way out.

  330. Tina says:

    Bs on the slimes claim. The wp composte claimed it was carter page, but he disclosed that he was going to russia, and going to russia is not a crime.

    It was the dossier and revisions to it that tresulted in the fisa warrant. The fisa warrant was likely judge shopped to the judge, who just recused himself in the flynn matter. He likeky should have recused himself well before.

  331. lisab says:

    It is quite scientific to argue that we breed and kill humans for scientific testing for the positive societal good… we can leave them in a comatose state.
    —————————————

    yes, you can make such arguments,

    but if you start with a premise of the natural rights of man(kind), which i do,

    than those arguments become unjustifiable.

    (as i have stated many times i am a lockean)

  332. Mr.Vito says:

    Politicians without a sense of right and wrong are useless. We choose our politicians based on our perceived rightness and wrongness of the policies they support… one who does not base decisions on some set or moral ethics will simply vote against your interests when it suits them.

  333. Mr.Vito says:

    “but if you start with a premise of the natural rights of man(kind), which i do”

    Okay, Locke… that helps a lot.

  334. Tina says:

    There are two ways to obtain a wiretap – also known as electronic surveillance – on U.S. persons (citizens and permanent residents), and both include the courts. For criminal investigations, the FBI can seek a warrant under Title III of the U.S. criminal code by showing a federal court that there is probable cause to believe the target has engaged, or is engaging in, criminal activity. This is a fairly high standard because of a strong presumption in favor of our Fourth Amendment right to privacy, and requires a showing that less intrusive means of obtaining the same information aren’t feasible.

    The standard for electronic surveillance for foreign intelligence purposes, though, is a little lower. This is because when it comes to national security, as opposed to criminal prosecutions, our Fourth Amendment rights are balanced against the government’s interest in protecting the country. The Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA) allows the FBI to get a warrant from a secret court, known as the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court (FISC), to conduct electronic surveillance on U.S. persons if they can show probable cause that the target is an “agent of a foreign power” who is “knowingly engag[ing]…in clandestine intelligence activities.” In other words, the government has to show that the target might be spying for a foreign government or organization.

  335. Mr.Vito says:

    The debate on natural rights and endowed rights is a long one with a great number of respected philosophers on either side. So, I won’t debate that with you.

  336. SanDiegoCitizen says:

    348. “I am not the least bit interested a plumber who will fix my pipes, but steal my TV, shoot me in the head, and rape my daughter on the way out.”

    Unfortunately, when something terrible like this happens, people often express surprise because the perpetrator had such good morals.

    Do you have a morals test we should know about? When someone starts talking about their strong morals, my reaction is often to get suspicious.

  337. Mr.Vito says:

    It was your metaphor, and clearly a bad one. You said all that matters were the plumber’s skills, not their morals.

    So, now you want to remove the metaphor and talk about how to choose an actual plumber and give some canard about how that plumber seemed so nice on the phone?

    Or do you want to stick with the metaphor you created and talk about how I said we choose actual politicians, which in terms of plumbers would be our gauge of their morality based on referrals and prior good work?

  338. Mr.Vito says:

    No one said anything about choosing politicians based on their pontification of morality… in fact the entire conversation Lisab and I were having was rooted in the opposite:

    “There are certainly many people who do not make their political arguments religious in nature. But, most people’s politics will be based in some set of moral principles.”

  339. lisab says:

    Positive goods, rights, and societal benefit is based upon morality and human ethos, of course. Not science.
    ———————-

    in my case, based simply on choice. i freely choose to support a system of government that allows me to freely choose.

    no creator is assumed or looked to

  340. Tina says:

    https://mobile.twitter.com/ByronYork/status/946788830568435712/photo/1

    Whoops, then ag, eric holder, said, i am the oresidents wingman.

    So,mno independent doj?

  341. lisab says:

    one who does not base decisions on some set or moral ethics will simply vote against your interests when it suits them.
    ——————————————

    i do not say we should not run our country by a set of ethics. though i have no wish to impose a set of morality on anyone, or have one imposed on me — where morality is defined as being given by some god(s).

    it is why i would not support roy moore in most circumstances. although i am sure we would agree on many things, we would conflict on items he specifically takes from his bible.

    for example, gay marriage, in certain circumstances abortion, legalized prostitution, transexuality, euthanasia, drug use etc. he is probably, morally against such things. i am not, at least not in the political realm — although i may agree with him in many cases legaly, it would not be because i consider them immoral.

  342. Bitterlaw says:

    What is the scientific reason to not murder somebody? Physics, chemistry, and biology really don’t care.

  343. lisab says:

    No one said anything about choosing politicians based on their pontification of morality… in fact the entire conversation Lisab and I were having was rooted in the opposite
    ———————————————

    i agree, we were having a discussion on humanities, specifically first premise of government.

    it was sparked because i stated, and hold, that government should run based on policies based on science when possible.

    however, i ALSO hold that the first principle of government should be based on the natural rights of man(kind), and a social contact individuals hold with each other and society as per llocke … particularly the natural rights of life and liberty.

    others hold different first principles, and thuse end with different conclusions, e.g. roy moore or in the extreme saudi arabia

  344. lisab says:

    What is the scientific reason to not murder somebody?
    ————————————–

    well, again, i would say that it would violate the natural right of the victim to live

    but scientifically, such societies tend towards anarchy, clan fighting and revenge killings, which is not conducive to society progressing.

  345. lisab says:

    btw, my distaste for robbie, cg, obamaconn et al. is also due to my lockean principles

    we have a process in democracy for getting rid of leaders you don’t like called elections. they wish to impeach trump because their candidate lost.

    as locke who was well aquainted with the english civil war would say, put your big boy pants on and suck it up until 2020.

  346. Bitterlaw says:

    well, again, i would say that it would violate the natural right of the victim to live

    That is based on philosophy, not science. Saying a right comes from “nature” is no different than saying it comes from God or any other unprovable source.

  347. Cash Cow TM says:

    Natural rights…endowed rights…

    Some people are naturally endowed…

  348. Tgca says:

    330. LisaB

    Marriage only encourages monogamy if it is frowned upon by the community to behave monogamously within the constraints of an LTR. Unfortunately, I doubt marriage will have little or no effect on gay males to be monogamous until there is community shame for not being monogamous. The vast majority of gays in LTR relationships I’ve known have no interest in monogamy and are not monogamous. Go to any gay chat or dating app and you will find tons of guys in an LTR looking for playmates. I have had numerous offers over the years by gay men in supposedly committed relationships.

    I once saw a funny gay profile that stated “I can’t wait to get married so I can have an open relationship.” That pretty much sums up how most gay men see marriage.

  349. Tgca says:

    366. Cash

    Agreed. Some of us are more endowed than others. Personslly, I wish I had an endowment like Harvard.

  350. lisab says:

    That is based on philosophy, not science.
    —————————————–

    i did not say it came from science.

  351. lisab says:

    Unfortunately, I doubt marriage will have little or no effect on gay males to be monogamous until there is community shame for not being monogamous.
    ———————–

    yes, we have discussed this before.

    fortunately younger gays are more interested in families than their older counterparts.

  352. Tgca says:

    370

    That’s not what I see in south FL and NY/NJ area. Younger gays run in the same circles and pick up the same bad habits.

  353. lisab says:

    from i see, younger gay men still run wild, but don’t get married, unless they are in a serious ltr

    and lesbians are starting families, as they always did

  354. lisab says:

    and those who do start families, i think deserve the same supports that society gives straight couples

    although, for the most part i think the country discriminates against married couples.

    were i queen i would give more welfare and tax credits etc. for married people

  355. Tgca says:

    Yes, men will be men. Unless there are expected behaviors and consequences, gay men will not change. The promiscuity today is as bad as it was in years past. The HIV rate amongst younger gays, especially minorities is on the rise. South FL has one of the highest HIV rate in the US. That does not happen when there is monogamy. This is sad.

  356. lisab says:

    where i see it is worse, is through the new phone apps

    and

    the new drugs which make hiv survivable for long periods

  357. lisab says:

    however, i barely recognize provincetown these days …

    gone are the days when you saw young gorgeous men, holding hands, walking down the street with nipple rings …

    now it is mostly older gays and lesbian couples

    with only a smattering of 30-ish gays

    it is gay gentrification i tell you!

  358. lisab says:

    oh … i forgot to mention …

    one of our (male) elementary school teachers came out as STRAIGHT!!!

    you could have knocked me over with a feather. one day he comes in and says he is having a child with his girlfriend !!!

    what a crazy world

  359. Tgca says:

    That’s because younger gays rather hang with their new found accepted straight friends then older gays because being gay is supposedly chic now. Younger gays think this somehow this normalizes them but even their straight counter parts grow and find committed relationships, leaving their gay brethren behind. At some point, the movement from one guy to another over the years becomes frowned upon by even their straight friends. It’s like the college guy who doesn’t grow up and parties into his mid 30s while all his friends start to settle down.

  360. Tgca says:

    The sad part is that many gay men will be in for a shock when they get to their 70s or 80s, if they live that long. We lost a whole generation of gays to AIDS that never made it to openly live to that age. That is just starting to happen so we will see how it goes. I suspect a lot of loneliness and isolation for these gay men as they reach that age.

  361. Tgca says:

    …but I’m not worried. I know I can move in with Bitter or Jason, so I’ll be fine…or better yet, we can all live together.we can hire Michael as our houseboy to do chores too when he’s not busy dating girls.

  362. lisab says:

    We lost a whole generation of gays to AIDS that never made it to openly live to that age.
    —————————

    yeah, most people did not live in areas where people were dying from aids

    it was sad to watch the 30-ish yo men waste away

  363. SanDiegoCitizen says:

    378. “That’s because younger gays rather hang with their new found accepted straight friends then older gays.”

    A lot of younger gays prefer hanging out with straight friends because a lot of older gays are creepy. Remember a young gay guy explain to me he avoided older gays because he “did not like to get pawed by dinosaurs.”

  364. SanDiegoCitizen says:

    Do know quite a few young gay male couples who are monogamous. They tend to not live in what are known as “gay” neighborhoods. It is very common in social groups to have a few gay males and lesbians in attendance. Its no big deal anymore.

  365. Tgca says:

    383

    True. But a lot of younger gays also lust after their straight counterparts and want to be around them. No different then straight guys want to be around ladies. It’s a little of the pot calling the kettle black if you ask me.

    I bet many straights would feel gays lusting after them are creepy. When I lived in SF, many straight friends at the gym were repulsed by gays in the locker room watching them and the gym finally banned phones in the locker room because creepy guys were taking photos surreptitiously of straight dues.

  366. Tgca says:

    383

    But that is not the norm in gay male couples. More often than not, gay men reject monogamy and see their LTR as arrangements for financial or companionship but still want the freedom to wander. I have been told numerous times that monogamy among males is not possible due to nature and just a concoction by straights. I refuse to accept that and that as human beings it is impossible to resist urges to wander. That’s like saying it’s impossible to resist alcohol or drugs. I don’t buy it but if it helps some excuse their behavior so be it.

  367. Bitterlaw says:

    I once saw a funny gay profile that stated “I can’t wait to get married so I can have an open relationship.” That pretty much sums up how most gay men see marriage.

    Gay men and Wes think alike? Interesting.

  368. Bitterlaw says:

    I had a gay boss tell me that the best part of being gay is that he could have sex whenever he wanted. He thought that was a selling point.

    I told him that it was like telling a person to go on a diet because they could eat as much salad as they want. That only works if you like salad.

    Somebody to make tossing the salad joke in 3…2…1…

  369. Tgca says:

    387

    You should sue for sexual harassment. Clearly he was sending you a signal.

  370. Tgca says:

    Per Newsmax

    MAGA = Make America Gay Again

    🙂

  371. Bitterlaw says:

    Tgca – I feel sorry for anybody with standards low enough to harass me.

  372. mnw says:

    Tina

    I would advocate for a 10% cut across the board, & tell each dept & agency to achieve that target in whatever way they wish. You know what your core functions are better than anybody.

  373. Tina says:

    Maggie Hacks story is so full of holes. I am surprised that the jebot is not even trying to spin her fake news as real.

    Maggie is a clintune propagandist.

  374. SanDiegoCitizen says:

    385. “But that is not the norm in gay male couples. More often than not, gay men reject monogamy and see their LTR as arrangements for financial or companionship but still want the freedom to wander.”

    Have to respectfully at least partially disagree. In some areas that may be the norm, but in others a significant number of male couples are monogamous. I know of the type of open relationships you speak of, but there are a lot of monogamous ones as well, particularly among younger people. My city council member is a gay male, he and his partner adopted and are raising a little girl. Think a lot of younger gays want to get away from the promiscuous male gay stereotype.

  375. Tgca says:

    394

    How people present themselves to others and what they do is different. I knew tons of professional gay males who lived a 2x life because who wants to let their family and friends know they have alternative relationship views.

    2nd, statistically, gay men are not monogamous and younger folks also fall in this trend with gay younger men having the highest increase in HIV and other STDs. This is just a fact in the gay community. Check out CDC and other stats on gay males.

  376. Tina says:

    Mnw, some agencies got a more than 10 percent cut. The epa has the same no of employees, as it did in the 1989s.

  377. Tgca says:

    400! Yay!

  378. Bitterlaw says:

    No points. The correct form to claim the C is CD.

  379. lisab says:

    I had a gay boss tell me that the best part of being gay is that he could have sex whenever he wanted.
    ————————

    how is that different from being straight?

  380. SanDiegoCitizen says:

    402. “I had a gay boss tell me that the best part of being gay is that he could have sex whenever he wanted.”

    Tell the clown boss to not run for political office in California. A member of the San Diego County Board of Supervisor lost an election in 2016 over that sort of conduct, and several of his staffers received about $350,000 from the County in a settlement paid in part because he tried to coerce them to cover up his affair.

    “Supervisor Roberts ‘Disheartened’ by Sex-Scandal Claims

    Updated at 1:30 p.m. May 15, 2015

    A day after being accused of an extramarital affair and making his office so toxic and “hostile” that four aides resigned, county Supervisor Dave Roberts has responded to the growing scandal bringing calls for his resignation.

    The lone Democrat on the county Board of Supervisors, who Wednesday was accused of cheating on his spouse, Wally Oliver, with a taxpayer-paid chauffeur, issued a statement via email Thursday.

    “I am disheartened to see the allegations contained in one former employee’s complaint that was filed with the County on Wednesday,” Roberts said in a note sent just before 4 p.m. by policy aide Adam Kaye.

    “This claim contains many inaccuracies. I am confident that if this matter advances further, the inaccuracies will be proven for what they are. As the allegations currently present a threat of litigation, I cannot discuss them further at this time.” “

  381. SanDiegoCitizen says:

    Two of the major issues in gay community now are being able to marry, and serving in the military. These are not your hippie disco gays from the 1980s.

  382. lisab says:

    SDC,

    TGCA and i have had this discussion before. many of the gay men from the 1970’s – 1990’s were very radical, and the only reason they wanted the right to marry was because they were opposed to traditional families. they had largely been excluded from their own families.

    starting in the 1990’s gays gained more acceptance in regular society, and much to the annoyance of the traditional radicals, they really see gay rights as having the right to get married, or join the army or adopt etc. largely this has been lead by lesbians, who were always more family oriented.

    however, it is a split in the gay community. certainly the youngsters are still promiscuous, as are most college age people these days,

    but in provincetown i have seen a very toned down gay culture than what it once was.

    however, i also believe tgca when he says the party is still in full swing … it just may be that provincetown has become gentrified

  383. lisab says:

    of course everything is relative … they still have bear week and friends of dorothy parties … just not like in the days of yore 🙁

    i see an awful lot of gay families now

  384. Tgca says:

    Yes, there are many gay men and women that live in monogamous relationships and have families, but that is the vast minority. I am not sure gay men as a whole will ever accept monogamy because the standards have been set lower for them. Within the gay community, it is acceptable to have open relationships and not accept monogamy as the norm. I believe that is because there are no consequences. In the straight community, if you cheat you risk expensive divorces, family shame and drama, and peer judgment. In the gay community it’s not considered a big deal. I would like to see the standard raised. Just because you can lie and cheat and it’s generally accepted or ignored doesn’t mean you should do it.

  385. Tgca says:

    Im not saying straight men don’t lie and cheat or that all gay men lie and cheat. I’m saying the practice of monogamy is not widely practiced in the gay community and that is generally acceptable, and gay marriage will probably not change that.

    Gay men generally find it ok to cruise other men even when their significant other is present. I find that revolting. If I’m out to dinner wit my bf and he is cruising other guys in front of me, that is not acceptable. I’ve had this debate numerous times with gay men and they say my standards are too high. So I simply ask them if it’s ok for their dad to cruise other women in front of their mom. They state no and claim that is different. I ask why? I’ve never gotten a well-articulated or satisfactory response.

  386. Tgca says:

    …and off to bed I go.

    *snore*

  387. lisab says:

    “ithin the gay community, it is acceptable to have open relationships and not accept monogamy as the norm. I believe that is because there are no consequences. In the straight community, if you cheat you risk expensive divorces, family shame and drama, and peer judgment. ”
    ——————————————

    to go back to my original discussion with mr. vito

    is exactly why i would promote gay marriage as something special beyond a ltr.

    i think there is ample scientific evidence to support the idea that monogamy is the best practice for society … serial monogamy being a close second

    regardless of which gender you are attracted to …

    and therefore, i support our society promoting such behavior. thus my long-term support for gay marriage long before most on hhr even thought it would be legalized.

    although many christian churches reject gay marriage, i think it is BY FAR preferable to polygamous relationships by gay partners

    as tgca mentioned std rates among gay men are the highest of any group — lesbians having the lowest, with heteros being in between

  388. lisab says:

    oh and also to clarify, i am not by any means saying that anyone should support gay marriage within their church

    i am only saying that it should be legal in society

    for example, i have never once taken illicit drugs, in fact i have never even smoked one cigarette, but i don’t think cigarettes should be illegal for others and have seen evidence that marijuana in certain circumstances is beneficial to some people. although i have never partaken personally …

  389. Sheeple, Jr. says:

    This is so true:

    “The Establishment claimed that after @POTUS @realDonaldTrump recognized Jerusalem as @Israel’s capital, there would massive protests across the Middle East. There are, but not what most thought, the Iranians are protesting the Mullahs’ regime. DC think proven wrong again…” (H/T: Jerusalem Post)

  390. jason says:

    Happy New Year to fellow A-holes, friends and trolls!

  391. Bitterlaw says:

    Happy New Year to those who post here. We may not always agree but you make this the craziest circus on the web.

    A special New Year’s wish to the Wizard for keeping the madness going.

  392. jason says:

    How somebody who grew up to in South America could believe that a Catholic has any influence on the Pope is amazing to me. You rarely see such proud ignorance of reality.”

    Yeah, I think Catholics have influence on the Pope.

    Some of the more liberal positions he is taking on gay marriage and abortion, for example, are due to pressure by Catholics.

    The pro-Marxist positions he is taking, however, seemed to motivated by his personal ideology.

  393. ssq says:

    see an awful lot of gay families”

    I think gay families are an awful lot too.

  394. Tgca says:

    New thread