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NH: Ayotte Leads Hodes By 7%Prospects of the Republicans holding Judd Gregg’s US Senate seat are bright if a new poll from American Research Group is to be believed. US SENATE – NEW HAMPSHIRE (ARG) This poll was done September 25-29 among 572 registered voters.
264 Responses to “NH: Ayotte Leads Hodes By 7%” |
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It’s early but this would be great to keep this seat.
I know these things seem to be unimportant to folks who always just vote the “best candidate”. Yet as we saw with Obama sometimes the best story beats the best candidate.
As a white republican who has an ethnic background (Italian) I am glad that Kelly Ayotte is just not another white anglo Saxon Protestant Male with country club ties with heritage back to the Mayflower.
I thinking her husband Joe is French (with that name) and Kelly is female. In addition her husband owns a landscaping and snow removal business. Sounds like Joe the Plumber and not Joe Ayotte.
I am all about the big tent so we see a female conservative ethnic running I say hurray
I’m not a big fan of registered voter polls. Still, this is consistent with every other poll showing Ayotte leading.
One wonders whether Hodes would’ve won re-election last year had it not been Obamamania. Shea-Porter most certainly would have lost. If NH voters are anything, it’s 1) anti-tax and 2) well-educated. They know what’s coming if the Obama-Pelosi-Reid regime is allowed to remain in power, unchallenged.
For those who push the Individual Mandate that takes away our rights and coauses costs to soar, The trend should be obvious to anyone who looks for it. The state has slowly been taking away more and more of our autonomy, deciding we do not know how to handle our own affairs, that we need the benevolent control of the state to live “properly”. Which leads me to ask one question.
If you support this trend, if you think the state is a tool for good, then answer one question: are you capable of making decisions for yourself? If so, then why do you assume no one else is?
#4 Wes,
RV polls are alot better than those mindless “Adults” polls that Gallup has been doing lately. But, I agree that LV polls are more instructive.
New Hampshire flirted with the Dems late in the Clinton presidency too, Cam. I think it’ll start shifting back the other way as Obama overreaches. Interestingly Sununu, while losing ssomehwat handily, ran well ahead of where everyone thought he’d be last year. Shaheen probably will not win reelection.
From below
Again super genius, once this is defeated, what are your particular solutions to the 17% a year increases in HC/HI costs that will eventually swamp the system. I will listen to anyone. I just won’t accept that the status quo is sustainable. And if it is not sustainable, we will eventually get single payer or worse a purely government form of HC…VA hospitals for all of us.
RAS: The number of people who think the country is on the wrong track (63%) is now the same as when Obama was inaugurated.
http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/mood_of_america/right_direction_or_wrong_tracker
Has anyone here mentioned today’s Thomas Friedman (NYTimes writer) column? Friedman equates the current criticism of Obama with the hatred of Israel’s Yitzhak Rabin in 1995, just before he was assassinated. What he’s trying to say is that criticizing (or even hating) Obama is dangerous — could lead to his assassination.
God bless Michael Steele! On CNN, he clearly called Friedman a “nutcase” for making this statement. The CNN host seemed incredulous that Steele would actually call the “respected” journalist, Thomas Friedman, a nutcase! He even asked, “Are you calling Friedman a nutcase?” To which Steele said, “Yes!” To which I said a fist-pumping “YES!”
Of course Friedman is the nutcase who openly calls for a $2/gallon tax on every gallon of gasoline — to force us out of our SUVs and into Toyota Priuses. He’s also the nutcase who thinks Obama’s Crap & Trade bill “doesn’t go far enough”.
Bottom line: If Friedman is SO concerned about the danger all of this criticism is on President Obama, I wonder if he said anything back when some movie-maker actually made a film about the assassination of George W Bush. Did he say anything? I doubt it.
You know the answer to that last question already, AIN.
#9 Solution – get the government out and put the consumer/patient in charge
Try freedom NOT the HUGE GOVERMENT COERSION you advocate
You have very little faith in you fellow citizen to make rational choices in their own best interest
When did you develop such an arrogant no-it all attitude? When did you develop these totalitarian impluses you now display so violently?
Answer my question -
Are you compentent to make your own choices on HC?
If yes, why do you assume that your fellow American cant?
I can tell you what my solution to avoid getting sucked into Obamacare was: an MSA, solid financial standing, and an upcoming move to the Bahamas.
the only way we get to single payer is if “pragmatists” like you keep allowing further government intrusions that are breaking the HC system
There is no need to “do something” as 90% are covered and happy
You fault the lack of total perfection as a reason for increased government intrusion
wake up please
Lets just cut the BS, since you want to “DO SOMETHING” – I assume you advocate passage of the Bacus Bill or Wyden-Bennett correct?
Are you compentent to make your own choices on HC?
You are damn right I am, and as a cancer survivor I have probably made a hell of a lot more decisions in that area that you have, including NOT to have treatment. My bills also got paid. And I will guaran – damn – tee you that I paid a bunch of bills for deadbeats in the process.
This is about people paying their own bills. If I were a betting man I would bet that you are some young punk playing Russian roulette with regard to your health insurance and hoping that someone else picks up the bill if and when you need treatment. Either that or some old dude sucking at Medicare’s teet.
You are really a one trick pony, posting talking points. 90% of people are happy with their HC because most of them don’t see the costs. They are oblivious to them, until they lose insurance or pay more for it because their employer can’t afford it and profits too.
You want to prove that you are a super genius, then tell me how do you control costs that are going up 17% a year? The Stock market could not sustain 17% a year increases. Real estate could not sustain 17% a year increases. What makes you think that HC can?
Come on super genius, tell me. You won’t because the talking points that you download from the various web sites haven’t addressed it yet. You are going to have to do it on your own assuming that you are capable, which is doubtful.
Guys, are you two seriously going to spend the rest of the day lobbing missiles at each other?
No – To paraphrase Ahnold in “The Last Action Hero”
“Why should I waste my time with him when I can be doing something more intellectually rewarding like rearranging my sock drawer.”
I am training for a marathon, so I have to go run.
Have fun, Knova, and good luck. I wish I could run.
“I just won’t accept that the status quo is sustainable. And if it is not sustainable, we will eventually get single payer or worse a purely government form of HC…VA hospitals for all of us.”
This is a flawed, weak and dishonest argument. To suggest that we need this boondoggle of a bill that penalizes over 80% of Americans who have damm good healthcare in exchange for a watered down healthcare quality level full of restrictions and under the control of bureaucrats and partisan government officials because there is “no other alternative” is hogwash. If you want to say your are for Obamacare go right ahead and say it, but please don’t defend it on the basis of there is no alternative. That is an outright falsehood.
Tort reform would go a long way to cutting costs. Getting people to switch to higher deductibles when they can afford it and catastrophic health insurance would help too. Medical savings accounts with tax incentives. There are plenty of good ideas out there. If we have to subsidize some INSURANCE coverage to those who can’t get it let’s do that instead of throwing out the baby with the bathwater.
And there is very little difference, btw, between Obamacare and single payer. Once you get Obamacare, you are on a non-stop express to completely socialized medicine.
RAS Obama approval on the economy-overall (HT Frank)
09/28 – 09/29 : 38.73% / 41.35% / -2.62%
http://www.rightpundits.com/?p=4595
Good to know, Marv.
Correction to #21
RAS Obama approval on economy-overall (HT Frank)
09/28 – 09/29 : 38.73% / 60.29% / -21.56%
http://www.rightpundits.com/?p=4595
Even better.
Marv, have you ever visited New Providence Island?
I don’t think that anyone here wants government run insurance. At the same time, knova is right. The course we are on is unstainable. The effort should be put into finding ways to reduce costs, instead of theoretical discussions about freedom vs. tyranny. We are in tyranny now. I am constantly forced to pay for other people. I have to pay for other people to get new cars, bailout on mortgages, pick up the tab for kids they can’t afford, and the list keeps on growing. Saying that we are not going to treat people who can’t afford it is a pipe dream. We are not going to turn our country into Calcutta.
Tort reform would go a long way to cutting costs.
We have had tort reform in Texas for a few years now. The HC costs are still rising. It is not the silver bullet people make it out to be.
MSAs combined with tort reform would be the way I’d go on this, Chek.
Also, there are studies that indicate that the reason wages were stagnant in the last few years is because of ever rising HC costs.
Chek, although this is not PC to say, I’d bet the illegals might have something to do with that. Of course less overprinting and inflationary spending by the government might also help keep costs in check.
#25 Wes,
No, just Nassau….and not for quite awhile now.
“We have had tort reform in Texas for a few years now. The HC costs are still rising. It is not the silver bullet people make it out to be.”
Wrong. The healthcare costs are rising but at the same time the quality of healthcare is also rising. The medical center in Houston is the best in the world. There’s nothing wrong with rising healthcare costs if the results are better.
The problem with rising healthcare costs in other places is that you’re not getting any better outcomes as trial lawyers and other structural stupidities drain the system dry.
If we lived in a system where every single person in the healthcare industry was concerned with patient outcomes and how to most efficiently deliver the best outcomes, noone would be complaining about healthcare costs.
Today we spend thousands of dollars on software and computer hardware each year. You don’t see anyone complaining because its all stuff that improves our quality of life.
I’m not paying for fatty mclard’s healthcare nor do I want the government to subsudize my fat ass with someone else’s money. Leave me alone, and fix healthcare in the ways that almost everybody agrees on, cutting costs and aligning incentives with better patient outcomes.
Marv, Nassau’s on New Providence. The island’s paradise.
I’d bet the illegals might have something to do with that.
Absolutely. Between the people who don’t pay their medical bills (whatever the reason) and Medicare reimbursing at 90% of costs, the rest of us are getting stuck with the bills. What has happened to HC in this country is the equivalent of what happened to the housing market in NYC thanks to rent control.
It’s a systemic problem, Chek, but even our flawed healthcare system is cheaper than the free Canadian or European one.
http://publicpolicypolling.blogspot.com/2009/09/word-on-our-virginia-weighting.html
Don’t worry about Obama’s Virginia numbers tomorrow even with the D +8 advantage. He’s at 35/56 with indies. He’s at 48% max, if you assume that his approval is 90% with Democrats.
#33 Wes
Well, I guess I’ve been on New Providence Island. (shows you what I remember of it)
“Absolutely. Between the people who don’t pay their medical bills (whatever the reason) and Medicare reimbursing at 90% of costs, the rest of us are getting stuck with the bills. What has happened to HC in this country is the equivalent of what happened to the housing market in NYC thanks to rent control.”
We’re still paying for the mistakes of FDR and LBJ.
Dio
I want to be left alone too. But that’s not the way it works. Why don’t we try to deal with reality. I don’t care if the government makes some irresponsible jerk get catastrophic insurance. Better that, than the current situation where people are few to screw up and I pay for the consequences of their actions. This is not substainable. If everybody had skin in the game, watch how quickly all politicians would become fiscal hawks.
Those weren’t mistakes, Dio. They were intentional powergrabs.
If you think health care is expensive now, wait until it’s “free”
P.J O’rourke
Politicians? Fiscal hawks? Talk about a pair of oxymorons. Well, some kind of moron anyway.
Does anyone else on here pray to God Alan Grayson loses by about 20 points next year?
“If everybody had skin in the game, watch how quickly all politicians would become fiscal hawks.”
Nope, all the democrats have to do is pretend that the skin I’m putting in is less than the skin someone else is putting in thus leaving me better off than I was before.
#44
Then it is up to the Republicans to push back. Make the case to the American people that we can’t have half the population voted themselves free goodies at the expense of the other half. Do you realize that 47% of the people pay not income taxes?! This is not fair. Everybody benefits from our society. Everybody needs to chip in.
I don’t care if the government makes
But there are many of us who don’t want the government mandating any more decisions for us.
The big run up in costs began with the feds throwing money at the system through medicare, thereby bidding up the price. Get government out of the business of health care altogether, and eliminate the third party.
But, but, Chek, you can’t have lower-income people paying income taxes. It’s just not fair!
Then it is up to the Republicans to push back. Make the case to the American people that we can’t have half the population voted themselves free goodies at the expense of the other half.
Well duh~~like we haven’t been doing that for the last half century???
Alright Mr. Chekote, maybe you want to turn the US into Calcutta. Topo marginal tax rates considerably lower, corporate taxes significantly lower, private health care if you can afford it, no tax to minimal tax on capital investment and capital gains. The India of the old, the socialist India I ran away from is long gone.
You seem to have forgotten the history of the Republic from 2001 to January of this year, DQ. When did the former President do anything but give half the people goodies at the expense of the other half?
Pitch, Chekote’s female.
Listen, tort reform brings down costs by reducing defensive medicine. The primary reason for high costs is the faact the customer is not aware of the price of his consumption. When you run your own MSA or HSA, you write the checks, therefore, you will use it carefully. You will ask your doctor if the MRI is absolutely necessary; if he says it is rule out something with a 2%chance, you will pass on it. Right now, you just go get it because you are not writing the check and yoiur doc is protecting his behind.
I apologise, Ms. Chekote.
Alright Mr. Chekote, maybe you want to turn the US into Calcutta. Topo marginal tax rates considerably lower, corporate taxes significantly lower, private health care if you can afford it, no tax to minimal tax on capital investment and capital gains“pitchaboy
Sounds like hong kong today, and they do just fine.
Sounds a lot like my future home, Pitch. Lower tax rates, private health care if you can afford it. The only thing you didn’t mention is bikini-clad babes everywhere. If Calcutta has those, i may have to rethink where I’m about to build a house.
Yep, Hongkong and India are fast becoming the places to start a business and make some profit. India learned its lesson from 30 years of horrendous socialism which made everyone poorer. There is undoubtedly inequal distribution of wealth now, but, capitalism has created 400 million new middle class people who are upwardly mobile and enjoying life.
When did the former President do anything but give half the people goodies at the expense of the other half?
Presidents can’t “give” anybody anything, that they don’t first take away from somewhere else. If the half you re referring to are taxpayers,allowing them to keep what was their to begin with isn’t “giving” them anything. If it was the “entitlement” recipients, there wasn’t much he could do, but in fact added to it with his “free drug” bravo sierra. I carry no torch for bush.
Bahamas is a great place, my family goes to Freeport for spring break and we have a great time. The government is run by African Bahamians(politically correct) but their attitude is the direct opposite of the African Americans. As for bikini clad natives in India, go the Mumbai or Goa and you will get plenty.
pitchaboy, please as a medical professional who is knee deep in the business, who knows the costs and who knows why they continue to rise, please don’t try to explain it to the masses. They will simply call you a liar like they did yesterday when you talked about the bad debt from uninsureds and they will accuse you of being against freedom. I mean you are a foreigner, what would you know. They have talking points, but no solutions. They will also be the first to go running to the government talking about evil corporations taking away their insurance.
But, but, Chek, you can’t have lower-income people paying income taxes. It’s just not fair!
This is where leadership and political courage come in. I am tired of the theoritical battles about liberty, tyranny and the rest. We currently have a system where decisions are privatized and consequences are socialized. It is unsustainable. This will bring our country down.
I went to the Bahamas on spring break 13 years ago, Pitch. I fell in love with the place and have wnated to live there ever since. Doing a bit of research on the country, I found out about tax rates and regulatory areas that make it diametrically opposed to much of the US. Now that I have the money and want to make sure my daughter can have everything she wants growing up, I’ve decided to fulfill the dream I’ve had ever since I was 17.
You do realize I was being sarcastic, don’t you, Chek?
I like Freeport more than Nassau. I love the Lucaya beach area. There is a kiosk on the beach called Joe’s something. Best conch, grilled lobster evah.
#62
Yes. But I am so sick of it that I no longer find humor in it.
I don’t eat lobster, Chek. If they serve crab though, I’m game.
I think Chek is on the dot when she says that you cannot use capitalism on the way up and socialism on the way down. That is why all the bailouts were ludicrous; the American people understand it. If the bailouts swere not done, there would likely have been a deeper recession but on the way out, we would hAVE a stronger economy.
60 – don’t pay income taxes. Get a Point of sale consumption tax. Everyone will have skin in the game.
OR if we have to pay income taxes, quit making businesses the collectors. have a person be given ALL of his salary (as well as the emploer part of FICA) then have to write a check to government every month, including their “contribution” to SS and Medicare. Again, people are all for this stuff because they never see it. if they had to pay it there would be REAL change and REAL quick.
Good luck Wes, I love Freeport. Less crowded, very friendly peopole and beautiful beaches. Nassau is a bit crowded and more commercialised.
BTW, I meant Calcutta as in the old days with people dying in the street. Notice I used the name Calcutta and not Kolkata.
#65
I didn’t either until I had the grilled lobster there. Absolutely delicious. Do you like conch?
I’ve never had conch, Chek. Then again, I’m not a big fan of eating snails, so I’m not sure about that one.
You got me, yes it is Kolkotta now. There are still the poor and the homeless but a lot has improved in the last twenty years.
Well, Nassau was where I stayed when I went there in the ’90s, Chek. If you say Freeport’s better though, then I may check it out and choose to build there instead of in Nassau.
Again, people are all for this stuff because they never see it. if they had to pay it there would be REAL change and REAL quick.
BINGO! This is why all the discussion on talk radio, other blogs about freedom vs. liberty are so meaningless. We don’t live in a libertarian society. Most of us have been forced to pick up the tab for other people’s irresponsible decisions. Again, we have privatized decisions and socialized the consequences. We can’t tell people how many kids to have. But if they have more kids than they can afford we all are FORCED to pitch in and pay for their care. This is the issue of the day. This is the issue the GOP needs to confront.
#71
Do you like calamari?
Damn good post, Chek. Damn good.
Oh, I love calamari–especially spicy.
Gotta take the mother-in-law to Joanne. I rather stick needles in my eyes. Later.
“We have had tort reform in Texas for a few years now. The HC costs are still rising. It is not the silver bullet people make it out to be.”
I live in Texas. In the first place tort reform in Texas is not as “reform” as it could be. Second, there are other reasons costs are still rising, costs with illegals being one of them. They would certainly be rising faster without the limited tort reform we have.
But be that as it may, Knova is not right because Obamacare is not going to reduce costs. It’s merely going to transfer more of the costs to taxpayers. For most people you will be paying the same or more for lower quality healthcare.
When Chekote says she is paying for other people, that’s certainly true. But Obamacare does not address that at all. Her rates will not go down, only the quality of healthcare. Any savings in insurance will be paid in higher taxes. That’s why the choice is not between Obamacare and the status quo. Obamacare is much worse than the status quo, because in the status quo at least a majority of people have quality healthcare.
The challenge to reduce costs and expand coverage does not go through Obamacare.
“Do you like conch?”
Conch chowder is terrific. And there is a dish where you pound the conch into thin steaks and bread them and fry them in garlic. Delicious.
Knova is not right because Obamacare is not going to reduce costs.
Do you even read other people’s posts. Tell me where I have once said that I am for Obamacare?
The staus quo is 17% raises a year or a doubling of HC/HI costs every 4 to 5 years. It is unsustainable. You can deny it if you want, but if we do not find some way, a free market way of getting those costs in line, companies are going to be either getting rid of insurance or making you pay more for it. Either way you will not be happy. And when enough people become unhappy they will demand that the government intervene. That my friend is when we will get single payer.
Not a pretty picture is it.
That actually sounds good, Jason. I’m still not entirely sold on eating seasnails though. Then again, I eat squid, so what the hell?
Conch chowder is terrific. And there is a dish where you pound the conch into thin steaks and bread them and fry them in garlic. Delicious.
It’s calle “cracked” conch. breaded and fried like chicken fried steak.
Wes, conch is much more like shellfish than a snail or even a sea snail…I would liken the taste to a clam more than anything else.
Well, I like clams, so I may give it a shot, Jason.
Obamacare will absolutely do nothing to contain costs; they will actually go through the roof as all the new insured will demand their pound of flesh. The government will be left to raise taxes or cut benefits or both. To contain health care costs you need to 1. do real tort reform by capping damages to reduce defensive medicine 2. let the consumer know the costs involved and make the decision to pay and for that you need high deductible Health Savings Accounts and 3. use evidence based medicine to drive care and not anecdote based empiric treastments. Obama is refusing to do 1 and 2 but has some elements of 3 in his bill. For anyone to believe government will fix the ills of private health insurance look at Europe and see the disaster of health care delivery there. Everyone is insured there but not everyone gets the treatment(rationing); here everyone may not be insured but one way or the other they are treated. Across the board, in every cancedr, you do better here than anywhere else.
“Do you even read other people’s posts. Tell me where I have once said that I am for Obamacare?”
So do you actually have a point to make or not? The discussion at hand is whether Obamacare gets passed or not. That’s what’s on the table, clear and simple, if you have noticed the Democrats are not interested in “free market solutions”.
You keep repeating the Democratic talking points about reducing costs forgetting to say Obamacare does not reduce costs. Or do you really think Obamacare will reduce costs?
I have the same problem with the AARP. They say “we are not endorsing any plan” but when you go to their site its all about the “myths being raised against reform” and other Democratic talking points. Your posts are all about how the status quo is bad. Well at the moment the options are Obamacare or the status quo. When Congress starts looking at “free market solutions” I for one will be greatly excited. Until then, this bill must be defeated.
The status quo is far better than Obamacare as in the long run, with Obamacare you get less care, more costs, much less freedom and ultimately bankruptcy. However, when the republicans held sway from 2000 to 2006, they should have pushed free enterprise solutions with Bush.
“However, when the republicans held sway from 2000 to 2006, they should have pushed free enterprise solutions with Bush.”
Right, except any free enterprise solutions would have been filibustered by the Democrats. Remember social security? These people are not interested in solutions that work, they are interested in solutions that work for THEM and for their AGENDA.
“Well, I like clams, so I may give it a shot, Jason.”
Nothing to lose, the taste is mild I doubt you will really hate it. If its not well prepared it can be somewhat chewy like squid/calamari can be sometimes.
This is great…there is some real talent on our side
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJ9Te1XP8RM
If Obamacare was about reducing healthcare costs, why is every proposal out there costing more than a trillion dollars, and rising?
If costs are being reduced, what is the trillion-plus tab for?
The last time I checked the English language, “reducing” means (or should) less than before.
Wes -Wes- Wes you talked about giving your daughter everything she wants? I hope you mean giving her everything she needs?
Only kidding-a little. My little is absolutely in love with every gadget that he sees on the internet and TV. If I gave him everything he wanted this family would be in the poorhouse.
Give her what she needs-plus a little more-but teach her that resources are limited-even if they are not.
If you give her everything she needs until she marries I would pity the poor guy she marries. Talk about high expectations.
My kids often wear hand me downs -from friends. After we outgrown them we give them to DAV or similar groups. Yes we could always buy new but we live in a society where too many people buy and give clothes that are only been worn twice.
Give them what they need and show them the value of a dollar
Knova -
Look, I have cite you hundreds of facts and links that shows you that your problem is minor – a 1% cost issue
I have cited hundered of “solutions” and links to plans that dont involve government coersion
You cite bogus status – 17% is not accurate its more inline of 7-9%
and is a result of more demand (aging population) and not enough supply
Unless you propose that people dont get old and sick, yes there will be more demand
I suggest you look at supply side and true deregulation
Put the customer/patient incharge of his decesion on what if any insurance to buy and what provider to chose and you will see costs drop suddenly – its happened in ALL the small segments of medicine its been tried like laser eye surgery
SO WHAT if costs go up by X% or HC is whatever % of the GD- in a free country with a free country where people are allowed their own choices and has the BEST medical in the world if we want to pay for it thats their right
the only one who has a HC cost problem is the government and you propose to allow them the use of force to “solve” their medicare bankrupty problem with billions in taxes, fees, and coersive power
you propose to have government rob the young and health at to cover up for the failures of there previous government intervetions
Again, I proposed several solutions to this too
You are the hack that repeats D and RINO/Sellout talking points
Or you work for Mitt Rommney since he feel for this idiocy in MA
In the other thread, you did cite some deregulations solutions – great start point but none of the current plans go near that
And if they work and reduce costs then why the need for FORCE?
People young, old, healthy, etcc will voluntary buy since it would be a rational choice
And coersion isnt a 100% solution – costs soared in MA, TN, etc for marginal decreases in the uninsured population
Rommneycare certain but the state government in charge of HC thats evident – the are right now proposing more regulations and state control
I dont buy the need for HC Insurance perfection either 100% coverage is neither a realistic nor desireable goal in a free society
Please demand that your politicians stealing trillions from you with socialist programs not your fellow citizens who are making rational decsions, as they should be allowed to do in a free society, about their own HC or financial arrangements
Its not due to some nebulus “people not paying there share” bs
87 – Here are my points
http://davidwissing.com/?comments_popup=9978
post 65 gives a hypothetical of what is wrong with the current system due to cost shifting. The numbers may not be right, but I would bet that pitchaboy would confirm that they are reasonable
Post 148 – explains what I would like to see with regard to dergulation and how healthcare is paid for
204, 213, 217 show where polaris and I are somewhat in agreement, and the last that I heard he is not much on Dem talking points.
Even DQ makes my point, albeit inadvertently by stating that we should get the third party payments out of the system. he is referring only to the government, but as pitchaboy states, all third party disbursement public or private that keep the end user from seeing the cost lead to economic distortions in their decision making.
Now if you read all of that and still think that I am for Obamacare or am spouting Dem talking points, then there is nothing I can do. And if you think that medical inflation rates of 17% a year are sustainable, then you are going to find yourself very disappointed in the world of single payer that is coming down the line.
You are the hack that repeats D and RINO/Sellout talking points
Save that for the amen choir. You going to call pitchabay a hack also?
I don’t know why i waste time reading you crap. of course it isn’t your original thought anyway.
Government is not reason. It is not eloquence. Government is force; like fire it is a dangerous servant — and a fearful master. —George Washington, 1797 …
So what is it wylie:
Young dude playing chicken with health care and no insurance hoping that ol knova and the rest of us pick up the tab for you?
Old dude, sucking at medicare’s teat letting the young support you through payroll taxes, that keep going up. Yep SS and medicare are the biggest wealth transfers from young to old in history, but you aren’t trying to get rid of them.
Or perhaps you have lost your job, COBRA is gone and nobody needs a loud mouthed reactionary super genius in their company, so you don’t have insurance and just want ol Knova and the rest of us with insurance to pay for you.
Wes
Conch is just like squid in terms of texture. Scorched conch is like a frutti di mare antipasto. Cracked conch is like calamari.
For a moment, I thought I was watching the Michael Savage Radio Program.
Yours is far less orginal – democrat talking points, and shallow thinking
Your appeals are to envey (Make those people pay by force) or arrogance (I know what is best for people and I want to use government force to get my way)
Your only “solution” is government force
And I have told you a million different ways how you are wrong on all counts
You evade any question posed to you and repost the same tired talking points and red herring problems
I feel you are the one who are growing tiresome
Please try to stop the diseaster that is Obamacare and Obamacare lite
No compromise – no surrender – no half measures
The heart of the takeover is the Individual Mandate
There is no justification for it in any true HC plan or a free society
“Now if you read all of that and still think that I am for Obamacare or am spouting Dem talking points”
There are two options on the table. Obamacare wins or it loses. There is no free market solution being considered.
The Democrats and Knova are pushing the “cost” angle. Obamacare does not reduce costs at all, much to the contrary.
Knova, here is the deal, if you are offered a choice of vacation in New Jersey or the Bahamas, you can’t say Paris.
Neither Knova or I are in favor of Obamacare. We are just talking about finding solutions to the current problem that is market based. We need solutions. Opposing Obamacare alone is not enough. Also, we need to be realistic about what is politically possible. Suggestions about denying care to people who didn’t buy insurance is not realistic.
There is no justification for it in any true HC plan or a free society WC
Exactamundo: We have an ample supply of mandates, we need no more.
Your only “solution” is government force
Hey buddy. We have government force now. We are forced to pay for the bills incurred by the irresponsible. What world do you live in?
from 204
I am all for stopping this travesty in it tracks and punishing those who want it. The trick will be afterwords and how we can inact real market based reforms once we are back in power. The status quo will not work.
Comment by knova
Looks like Bahamas to me…or do you want me to use smaller words.
You can ignore the costs if you like, but that is what is creating the problem.
We have an ample supply of mandates, we need no more.
People who can afford to buy insurance and choose not to need to be forced to do it. Otherwise, we will keep on paying their bills. And yes, send them to jail along with the people who don’t buy auto insurance. I am sick of these leeches.
Cheap high quality health care==attempting to extract 9 lbs. of crap from a 7 lb sack.
you know wylie, with the $53 trillion unfunded liability of medicare and SS, why the big deal about HC? The Chinese already own us
You can ignore the costs if you like, but that is what is creating the problem.
Spot on! This is why Obama found a receptive audience during the campaign. Unless the costs are lowered, we will head for socialized health care. Hell, many corporations would be more than happy to have the government provide healthcare. Just ask GM.
108 – you post a lot but you never say anything, why is that?
Knova, just let go and embrace Obamacare. Cleanse your soul, go ahead and admit you think a trillion dollars from taxpayers is a cost savings. You have all the script all memorized, it would be a shame to waste the effort.
Hey buddy. We have government force now. We are forced to pay for the bills incurred by the irresponsible. What world do you live in And yes, send them to jail
You will also be forced to pay higher taxes to cover those not “financially able” to buy their own policy. This mandate is not cost neutral.Who pays to jail them?
Fascism is an ugly thing, but then you are italian.
110. Actually big business and many small businesses would love to dump HC on the government. The taxes, at least initially would be a lot less than the insurance. And once business is in bed with the government (kind of like the “regulated” oligopolies the States give to insurance companies, instead of out and out competition) then we are headed for single payer.
#98 Sigh, you have lost your mind.
You personal sitution or mine has nothing to do with it.
I have worked since the age of 14 and have paid all my bills all the time for HC, insurance, taxes, etc
The cost shifting you keep refering to is 1% of my HC costs
SO FREAKING WHAT – small price to pay
I am not losing my mind and clamoring for the largest expanision of government power ever over the population for what amounts to a non problem
You are the one who keeps bringing personal slander into the discussion
I meerly point you constantly ape D/RINO sellout talking points which is a true statement
so either you support them or have fallen for them
Doesnt matter your wrong
please continue to lose your mind – its quite amusing
And if you get your way with the Individual Mandate, dont come crying about how your authoriarian action against your fellow man comes back to haunt you in many ways
the only way we get this single payer you cite is if we give in right now and let the socialists Nationalize insurance with the Individual Mandate
Make no mistake, the Individual Mandate is government run health care – they set the rules, make you participate and pay, and they handout checks to their favored political groups
just because they are gracious enough to let it be adminstered thru a bank/gm controled quasi-private company is only a rehtorical difference not a real one
Knova, just let go and embrace Obamacare.
Why do you feel it necessary to distort his position? Knova has never supported Obamacare. Just because Knova wants to focus on solutions or the real problem (i.e. costs) it does not mean that he supports Obamacare. Not only are people expected to oppose Obama but it has to be done in a particular way or it doesn’t count. What nonsense!
112 – jason, you are punk, and not a very bright one. I have raised my kids, a couple of which are probably older than you, so I don’t need to raise you. Which of my posts say that I want a huge government run program?
– you post a lot but you never say anything, why is that?
Because you haven’t the decernability that you think you have.
DQ
You start sending a couple of people to jail and you watch how quickly they will come up with the money to pay for insurance. They are leeches. Pure and simple.
“Unless the costs are lowered, we will head for socialized health care”
That’s like saying “firings will continue until moral improves”. Socialized health care won’t mean lower costs, it will mean lower quality healthcare.
#120
What do you think health care was one of the top issues in the last campaign according to polls?
Socialized health care won’t mean lower costs, it will mean lower quality healthcare.
I know that. WE ALL KNOW THAT. That’s not the point. The point is that is costs are not brought under control, companies will stop providing coverage. What do you think will happen then?
You start sending a couple of people to jail and you watch how quickly they will come up with the money to pay for insurance.
Only in a police state would someone be jailed for not buying insurance. I don’t want to live in that kind of state. What will be the next mandate that we can threaten to jail people over?? Slippery slope indeed.
#110 But that is exactly what you propose!
Big Health Insurance gets a regulated government controlled Monopoly market called the “Exchange” which keeps all competion out due to the governments high cost of entry!
Your Individual Mandate gives them millions and millions of forced customers – what business would not want goverment force to sell there product? Much easier then real competion or internal cost controls
Obamacare is crony capitalism at its worst!
Its a fiction that employers “pay for HC” – the employee does since he exchnges wages for this benefit
Employers must pay competitive compensation to attract the best employees weither or not HC is provided or not
Wylie
NOBODY HERE SUPPORTS OBAMACARE.
#122 Individuals will buy it or pay their own HC costs.
A really true competative market in HC Insurance will allow people to make the rational choice to purchase
Your coersion does not result in more people insured or reduced costs
It has failed to do so in MA, TN, or HI
So do you propose we give into Wyden-Bennett or Bacus?
Just say yes or no
Yup, nobody.
#125 Ok, Do you support Wyden-Bennett or Bacus?
Only in a police state would someone be jailed for not buying insurance.
What’s the difference? We now can go to jail for failing to pay the taxes for the leeches in our society. I rather have the leeches do the time.
BTW, by leeches I mean people who can pay for insurance but opt for the $10,000 home theater instead.
Government mandated insurance===corporate state socialism==fascism.
My lovely state, has 6 insurance plans available to one of my associates that is a small business over.
There are over 1,000 insurance plans nationwide.
Yup, sounds like a free market.
“You start sending a couple of people to jail and you watch how quickly they will come up with the money to pay for insurance. They are leeches. Pure and simple.”
This is obfuscation and misdirection. What Obamacare is offering to people who don’t have insurance is an “averaging out” of healthcare quality where you place limits on the quality of health care enjoyed by 80% or more of the population under the guise of offering “universal care”. But since Obamacare is a boondoggle of a bill creating a big bureaucracy and other inefficiencies inherent to government run programs the savings of watering down your health care plan won’t pay to cover everyone. Hence the trillion dollars out of YOUR pocket. And that’s the down payment as we move into a complete government takeover.
So bleating about paying for your uninsured neighbor’s bill is peanuts compared to the howling when you get the true bill for Obamacare.
Defeat Obamacare. Elect enough Republicans in 2010 to get a free market solution bill through Congress and let Obama try to veto something that will expand coverage, reduce costs and maintain quality. That should be the strategy.
#130
Please stop the sloganeering. It is not like we live in a liberatarian society. Stop paying SS and Medicare taxes and see what happens.
What’s the difference? We now can go to jail for failing to pay the taxes for the leeches in our society.
Fine, so let’s add another crime against the state. In your world two wrongs make a right.
“What do you think health care was one of the top issues in the last campaign according to polls?”
Meaningless, it’s always one of the top issues. Iraq was the top issue until the Democrats realized it wasn’t in their interest anymore to sabotage that war. Now its health care. Tomorrow its immigration.
115 – actually the biggest expansion of government happened in the 1930’s and 1960’s and is getting ready to blow up in our faces in about 10 to 16 years.
If you can show me original research that supports your claim of 1% cost shift and less than 1% bad debt I will look at it. Again ask our local medical professional about each of those issues and see what he says. All I can do is go by what one Hospital CFO tells me, and I don’t think that he would lie, and he is pretty well connected in the industry.
BTW, I will say this for you. I agree that an aging population iare one part of driving up costs and that we will need more beds and practionors in the future. It is probably more than tort. The cost issue needs to be addresses as that is the crisis that has led the Dems to believe that they had a chance to take advantage of it.
But mark my words, if costs are not addressed and addressed quickly, and the market does not do it, people will demand that the government do something. We will get worse, a lot worse.
Once again, I do not appreciate being accused of using “Dem talking points.” My favorite book is “The Road to Serfdom” by F.A. Hayek. if you have never read it you should. My primary source of information is the WSJ. Believe it or not I form my own decisions and opinions based on real life experiences with little help from anyone else. My talking points are my own.
#132
I don’t believe that either Knova or I have said that Obamacare should be implemented or that Obama should be re-elected. Quite the contrary. We are just saying that you need to bring down the costs. If you don’t, you will have socialized medicine down the road. The reason healthcare has become a top issue for voters is the ever increasing premiums and deductibles.
should every person who fails to pay bills be put in prison?
do you want the leeches who default on Credit Cards sent to jail – they shift more costs to us then so-called HC nonpayers?
how about mortgage defaulters – I pay higher loan rates and bank fees and taxes for them too! Prison for them!
Geesshh, you want a perfect solution to a 1% cost PROBLEM
For 1% I will pay the bill and thank god I have my individual freedom
Tim Pawlenty is on Greta – he is push a new “Liberty and Freedom” platform for our public policy – he is annoucing on his WWW site and on TV tommorrow
He goes to #1 on my favoratie R politican list
On my most hated R politician list:
(1) Rommney
(2) Bob Bennett
(3) Bill Frist
(4) Bob Dole
(5) Snowe
Individual Mandate supporters all
Meaningless, it’s always one of the top issues.
It is not meaningless. The top issues in the voters minds is what will drive the vote. Whomever comes across as the person that has a solution to their top concerns will win. And no. It has never been a top issue until recently. That is why the GOP did squat about it while in power.
118 – decernability? Is that even a word? You pretend to be an intellectual. What else do you pretend to be? You use al sorts of “brovo siera” military jargon and probably the closest you ever got to that was “Soldier of Fortune” magazine.
Please stop the sloganeering. It is not like we live in a liberatarian society. Stop paying SS and Medicare taxes and see what happens.
You can’t stop paying it, because the employer deducts it up front as you well know. Wanting to add more penalties onto the backs of the people seems to be your desire. Forced ss payments were wrong from day one, why add to the mess with more mandates? You are trying to use past federal transgressions as an excuse for more of the same.
Policy A was wrong, so let’s add policy B, which is also wrong.
#137 And I cited a million ways, links, and posts that will reduce costs in a way that prreserves our choices, liberty, and freedom
AND keeps the Federal Government out – period
Your and KNOVA’s answer is simply amounts to this:
Use government force to get more money from as many people as possible to prop up the status quo
Ok, so what is your “solutions” that dont involve government force?
A really true competative market in HC Insurance will allow people to make the rational choice to purchase
What if their true rational choice is to simply not have insurance then let not pay.
#141 Exactly, bad government intervetion justifies worse government intervention
This is how you get to single payer – let government have control
the Individual Mandate gives government an excuse to force you to do nearly anything
that is the histroy of government intervention and what is going on right now
we are winning the HC fight, why give it life to solve fictional problems of the left that government intervertion will only make worse?
The Road to Serfdom” by F.A. Hayek.
I read it before you were born, and he would be spinning in his grave to hear you now. Von mises would give you short shrift as well.
Spare me your ad hominem remarks, it is juvenile and childish.
ladies and gentlemen I am through for the evening. We have run every reasonable person on HHR off of this thread and for that I personally apologize. To
Tina
MD
Darrell
TB
Tim
Tim V,
eph
Wes
even phil
and after today polaris
And Dave W.
You have my word that I will no longer engage these yahoos even though I am sure that many of you agree with them.
“I know that. WE ALL KNOW THAT. That’s not the point. The point is that is costs are not brought under control, companies will stop providing coverage. What do you think will happen then?”
Go to the blackboard and write a thousand times “Obamacare will not reduce costs”. The Democrats are NOT INTERESTED in reducing costs. They are interested in pursuing their own political agenda and interests, whatever the cost. That’s why they squeal like stuck pigs when someone even suggests reducing their boondoggle from 1 trillion to 900 million.
I read it before you were born
I am sure that you did. What are you 80, because you would have to be in order to do what you claim. You are a poseur and wannabe and a liar. As stated above, I am finished with you
#143 Again, the answer is to make them accountable to pay. That is a civil contract enforcement action.
Good lord, as bad as you say it is right now its only 1% of my personal HC costs
We will never acheive perfection or utopia in HC or other business cost shifting!
If HC insurance is truly competiative and deregulated the situation willl only get much better but I will never say it will be totally sovled or perfect but will say it will reduce the problems of cost you cite much much better then further government force will – that is the historcal facts of free market and free choice
The individual mandate is no panacea – people will still choose to evade no matter how onerous you make to cooersion so its a false solution and one that has shown in MA and other states to make your personal costs and government taxpayer costs soar
Its a trap – dont fall for it
Any plan that will really reduce costs wont have to rely on force
Go to the blackboard and write a thousand times “Obamacare will not reduce costs”.
Only after YOU go to the blackboard and write: “Knova and Chekote don’t support Obamacare” a thousand times.
I think Wylie and Knova are both right in many ways. I deplore the individual mandate but I also believe that individuals need to take responsiability for their lives and that their freedom does not come free.
If you are 25 years old and have no savings and no health insurance your fallback in case of severe illness is good old Uncle Sam. That’s you and me. So many people are running naked, in insurance terms, are relying on hard working taxpayers to be their fallback. That’s not right.
Yet I would not compel folks to buy insurance. We do live in the land of the free but living your life without buying health insurance means I and millions of others have your back.
Its similar to those folks who have children without fathers and end up in public housing and on welfare. They dropped a baby and had no resources so we cover them.
I say freedom has a price and everyone should strive to educate themselves, work, save, buy life insurance and buy medical insurance. Many folks right now have cable, cell phones, internet service, eat out daily and have fancy cars yet they have no health insurance. Unless you are truely self insured by savings against medical disaster you are living as if Uncle Sam will bail you out.
Yet I would not enslave the responsible ones to protect the irresponsible.
With all the above talk about costs of healthcare, can someone please`show how Obamacare in general, and individual mandates in particular, reduce costs?
If these reduce costs, why the trillion-plus dollar price-tag (to start with, and more coming in later years)?
You can’t stop paying it, because the employer deducts it up front as you well know.
Become self-employed and stop making payments. See what happens. This idea that there is no governemnt coercion is just false. I would like to re-allocated the current coercion so that the leeches in our society start pitching in.
#139 HC was like number 7 on the list of voter issues right now before the D started the takeover push – so now all of us who dont want a takeoveer has made it a top prioity – before the era of hope and change it was perpetually in the low single digits
the best way for R to get millions of new votes is to kill all forms of Obamacare to include Bacus and Wyden-Bennett
“That is why the GOP did squat about it while in power.”
Republicans never had the 60 votes to Rham through any real health care or social security reform that involved free market solutions. But whatever, blaming Bush won’t get us anywhere in this debate, it’s not about Bush, it’s not even about reducing costs (unfortunately), it’s about Obamacare. That’s the 800 lb gorilla, that’s what’s being debated, that is what will fly or not fly.
All the fence sitting and hand wringing won’t change that.
#153 sounds like you have an envy issue so you are willing to pay thousnds more out of your pocket to have your revenge.
Are you also asking government force for all other businesses cost shifting – for Credit Cards, Mortagages, etc because you are picking uup deadbeats costs there too?
Does your desire for revenge on your fellow citizen for you loss of pocket change lead you to sanction government force in those cases as well?
jason
My point is that health care has become a top issue in the last few years because of the ever increasing costs. If you don’t deal with the costs, you will get more and more pressure for the government to do something. And they will.
“Only after YOU go to the blackboard and write: “Knova and Chekote don’t support Obamacare” a thousand times”
That’s so nice, hand in hand. Why don’t you guys take 12 hour shifts each if you are two peas in a pod and have the exact same mindset and talking points. You can always have each other on call in the event of a power failure or hard disk crash.
Noun: discernability
Distinctness that makes perception easy
#153 sounds like you have an envy issue so you are willing to pay thousnds more out of your pocket to have your revenge.
It is not revenge. I am sick of paying for other people’s irresponsible behavior. A mandate won’t affect my life one bit. I already pay for insurance because I am a responsible individual. But it will affect the free riders. Time to stop eating out everyday and start paying premiums like the rest of us.
#155 Gee, thats a D talking point I havent heard before.
MMM, lets see what was done: Medicare Advatage, Medicare perscription drugs, Cobra, etc
The GOP did PLENTY – in fact too much in some areas
The Medicare drug plan was a bad government expansion like Obamacare
to say they have done “nothing” is simply BS
They have done alot – some good and some bad but it hasnt been nothing
this is a thrid grade school yard arguement “oh yeah, well the GOP did nothing – nna,na, na, na”
Rdel. Thank you. I should have put you on the list of reasonable people.
Sam – As I have stated in the previous thread, unless a mandate is connected to a deregulation of the insurance industry it will not work. Under the proposals being floated, there will be no deregulation, so we would be stuck with government minimums coverage and no ability to price per actuarial basis and for pre existing conditions. wylie is correct that under those circumstances the young and healthy subsidize the old and infirm, like they are right now with SS and Medicare. Also the states would still regulate the insurance companies giving allowing some in and keeping some out and in essence providing oligopoly status to the preferred providers. This is one of Hayek’s definitions of fascism.
Deregulation is the key. Without it it does not work and is a true burden and stealth tax. See my post 65 on the previous thread for a cost shifting example and 148 on the same thread for an example of how a deregulated but mandated insurance might work.
Become self-employed and stop making payments. See what happens. This idea that there is no governemnt coercion is just false.
Of course there is government coercion, that’s why we don’t want to add to it.
“you will get more and more pressure for the government to do something”
Oh puhhlease…remember Hillary care? It goes back to at least JFK. The Democrats have been pushing for a health care take over for decades, it has nothing to with pressure, costs, public opinion. Most people are against Obamacare, even at best. Do you think they care?
What can I tell ya Jason. Great minds think alike.
You can sit here and repeat “talking points” all you want. What we are saying is that you need to address costs. Also, we cannot sustain a society where decisions are privatized but consequences are socialized.
Of course there is government coercion, that’s why we don’t want to add to it.
I don’t want to add to it. I want to refocus it so that the irresponsibles in our society start carrying their own weight.
Jason
Yes. The Dems have been pushing for socialized medicine for a long time. It is ideological for them. But as more and more people can’t afford the premium, the Dems will have a more and more receptive audience.
I don’t want to add to it. I want to refocus it so that the irresponsibles in our society start carrying their own weight.
Jailing people is adding to it.
“reasonable people”=== those who agree with knova.
Jailing people is adding to it.
People are going to jail now for failing to pay taxes to cover the expenses of the free riders. I say, let the free riders do the time. That’s reallocation. Not addition.
Once again, what in Obamacare in particular, and individual mandates in particular, is reducing costs?
Why the trillion-plus down payment in increased costs?
The only thing Individual Mandates do is try to find additional revenues to throw in the healthcare expenditures pool.
where’s the cost reduction?
#16 Well its clear you dispise your fellow citizen.
So you are not only capable of making your own choices but you are alos so arrogant to think you are capable of making HC choice for other people too without even know them you assume they will do the wrong thing. Sad.
Your ansewer is clear NO you dont trust your fellow citizen.
So how many people are incapable of making what your percieive to be the wrong choices – 50%, 60%, 90%
How much state force will you santction to get people to do what you want them to do?
How do you know you belvoved state intervnetion will get the result you want? Clearly in HC it has not
Yet you strenously advocate for it
Sad, if people had more trust in there fellow man to act rationally we would have this statist maze you cite
the answer is to say no to more government interverion even if its being sold as intervention you like
after all, some politican and unelected beaurcrats gets the power not you – you will have to live with the poor results and uninteded consequences so be careful what you wish for
you statists enforce utopia will not be what you think it to be
Everyone,
1. Actually if you are self-employed and live mainly on dividend income you pay no social security tax becuase investment income isn’t considered income for social security purposes. This is how many millionaires get away with not paying a red cent in social security and it’s perfectly legal.
2. Knova and Chek, a free market “solution” (and individual forced mandates are anethema to any free market) is NOT on the table. The Dems aren’t interested in fixing healthcare. They want to impose an additional level of govt control to get a permanant govt dependency.
3. GIVEN that right now it’s either Obama care including individual mandates or nothing ANY support for individual mandates IS in fact support for Obamacare whether you intend it to be or not. As the opposition we have to be absolutely UNITED in OPPOSITION of all forms of Obamacare INCLUDING the individual mandate.
Now is not the time to waffle (and that means you Chek and Knova).
-Polaris
“What we are saying is that you need to address costs. Also, we cannot sustain a society where decisions are privatized but consequences are socialized.”
Beautifully written but hardly an original thought, every Daily Kos on the Internet repeats it ad nauseam. But trite slogans aside, addressing costs is fine, who could be against that.
But addressing costs is not on the table, its a false premise that the Dems are selling but which they won’t deliver.
You act like we have a proposal to really cut costs that we can all support. We don’t. We have Obamacare. It’s take it or leave it and I rather leave it.
I think you are sincere but Knova should get out of the closet.
did the founders have health insurance ?
did the disciples have health insurance ?
did the Romans have health insurance ?
I used to sell health insurance. in the 80’s for a $100 deductible 80/20 co-pay plan, the cost for 20 something males was about $25 per month and for females maybe $40 ( maternity ), For an older 55 year old a family plan cost around $200 per month.
Why did the costs go up so much ?
Ah Polaris, a voice of reason.
#171 There is no cost reduction for “individual mandates”. It’s a stealth tax that has to be introduced (and Obama was called on this) with JAIL TIME included in order to make the cost basis work on paper. That’s all.
-Polaris
get away with not paying a red cent in social security
Being the ponzi scheme that it is, I’m glad they are able to do just that. The taxes on those dividends should be enough.
#170 wrong – false
They are going to jail for failing to obey the tax law.
Evidently, they had the resources to pay the taxes and it was found in the courts to have willfully violated the law.
If you disagree with the tax law then advocate change for it
If you hate taxes going to govnt handouts – change the handouts
Your Individual Mandate with its taxes will put more in jail for not paying taxes – Senator Ensign exposed that
Your solution for bad government intervetion is allow even worse government intervention – thats no solution
Your ansewer is clear NO you dont trust your fellow citizen.
This is just a bunch of ideological pap. Look at the stats. We currently have about 47% of the people who don’t pay any income taxes because they don’t have to. If they are so wonderful, why don’t they feel the need to pitch in and send a check to the treasury voluntarily? Same with health care. As the premiums get higher and higher, more and more people are opting to take a chance because they know the rest will foot the bill.
#177:
I know that.
I am just asking the ones bleating about costs and mandates to please show how mandates are going to reduce healthcare costs.
Why the trillion-plus price tag (and rising) if there is such a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow?
Why the trillion-plus down payment in increased costs?
There is increased cost, because there is no offsetting deregulation that enhances competition among the insurance providers and allows them to tailor policies to individual needs as well as price them to account for age and pre existing conditions.
in the 80’s we had the most efficient phone system in the world. But it was a regulated monopoly. When AT&T was broken up and deregulated, there was a lot of confusion for several years. Fast forward to today and we again have the most efficient system in the world with new technologies and much cheaper costs. I can remember when in state long distance calls were more expensive than out of state ones, because the states could still regulate what happened within their borders. Now days, who pays long distance? How many people don’t even have a land line. Our communications technology is tailored and marketed to our individual needs.
That is what deregulation can do to decrease costs.
#180 As the premiums get higher and higher, more and more people are opting to take a chance because they know the rest will foot the bill.
True and Obamacare will make this worse (as Romneycare has in Massachusetts). Right now providing insurance at all makes questionable (if no) economic sense, and buying insurance if young doesn’t either because the numbers don’t add up.
Obama’s plan does NOTHING to solve this and never intended to.
-Polaris
Kelly Ayotte was “Ayotte” in law school. I believe that it is her maiden name.
But is deregulation on the table?
Now is not the time to waffle (and that means you Chek and Knova).
Who is waffling? I don’t support Obamacare. Knova is not either. But we both would like to see costs brought under control. And, yes, I want people who can afford insurance to buy it since if they get sick I will be expected to pay for them.
Why did the costs go up so much ?
The costs went up when big brother started throwing money into the system via medicare 1964, thus bidding prices higher.
Knova,
One. Last. Time.
Deregulation of healthcare is NOT ON THE TABLE
Supporting Obama’s plan in any part IS support for Obamacare (and that means support for the individual mandate right now does more harm than good).
Look at Lasik surgery which is dirt cheap compared with other surgeries of the same type. It’s dirt cheap because it IS deregulated.
The REASON you have so many “free riders” is because insurance costs too damn much and the answer to that is NOT to criminalize those trying to make sound economic decisions.
The answer is to deregulate the industry so there isn’t an incentive to take the chance BUT THAT ISN’T AN OPTION right now! Get it?
-Polaris
186 – I am leaving now. I would like it very much if you would speak for yourself and allow me to speak for myself. Thank you.
#167 Solution = freedom and free markets
Costs are going up due to government interference in markets, rising demand (aging which government cant control), and supply not keeping up (again government restrictions against entry into the HC profession or building new hospitals, etc hurt here too)
Individual Mandates just force more people to cough up money to prop up a bad system and doesnt address root causes
Individual Mandates are GOVT RUN HC because you ceed the power to dicate the terms of everything to the government
Time to sleep.
#186 Then help the conservatives win a few elections so a TRUE marketbased healthcare reform can be implemented.
If costs weren’t so high, you wouldn’t have so many people decide not to pay (a perfectly rational decision btw).
Instead of punishing people for making sound economic decisions, you should make those decisions easier.
-Polaris
#186 Ok, so what is out there that you do support?
Bacus?
Wyden-Bennett?
Those are both Obamacare
We wont get a chance to fix the problem you say you want to fix until we defeat these scams
If they deregulated the health insurance industry, what would the insurance commissioners do?
Where would politicians get their campaign contributions from?
#194 You got it in one.
-Polaris
“I would like it very much if you would speak for yourself and allow me to speak for myself. Thank you.”
Whoops, Chekote and her clone are divorcing.
Polaris – we have agreed that we have to kill this thing as it stands. I am taking a much longer look at the issues after this is dead and the hopefully fiscally responsible wing of the GOP is governing.
We Agree
I email Webb and Warner every couple of weeks and express my concerns such as “please don’t use reconciliation for something that is so divisive” and “you should look into a free market way to solve this problem, since we have a looming $2 trillion deficit this year alone.’
I am polite, because this stuff is read by a staffer and they generally send me a form letter back. Now i don’t know if that is waffling and i don’t know what more you think I should do.
I disagree with Chek and Knova both, but having posted here for years, they are hardly clones.
-Polaris
#197 That’s all well and good, Knova, but in politics even the appearence of weakness emboldens the opposition. Right now we can’t afford to consider the future before we defeat the present or there won’t be a future.
Until the Dems are defeated hopefully in 2010 and 2012 (but my skepticism here is well known), there is no point in talking about a hypothetical free market heathcare arrangement. none. The Dems won’t allow it.
-Polaris
knova
Polaris, it was a joke in reference to posts above where Chekote said “great minds think alike”.
#199 cont However, we’ll still likely disagree on individual mandates. I am much too libetarian for me to even consider them especially if the source for the high costs is actually addressed. Address the high costs for insurance and healthcare, and your free-rider problem (largely) goes away. I say largely because you always have a few scammers in any industry…..and always will.
-Polaris
#182 Ok
I agree – deregulation works and will work in HC
Where is it in any of the current D bills?
Wyden-Bennett – no, more regulation
Bacus – no, more regulation
Any true deregulation will reduce costs and will not require force to make people participate in HC insurance or anything else
there is no need for an individual or employer mandate in any true HC plan
198 – I name call as much as anyone. Its kind of the wild west here. yesterday you and I would have killed each other, today we reach agreement. The problem is that too many people read pasts other posts or read into them what they want to see, or in the case of someone with whom they disagree, distort their views.
# 200 Funny….
200 – IP727/DQ
http://media.urbandictionary.com/image/page/asshat-22713.jpg
#202 Polaris – I have cited many links for Chek and KNOVA that cite the so-called free rider cost at only 1-2% annually
I think you would find that this is much less then in most other industries
to combat this small small cost shift they would have us pay thousands more!
this is not rational or reasonable to advocate massive government force and intervention
#207 I don’t disagree, but if I accept their point as a real problem and then show that individual mandates are NOT the way to solve it, but reducing costs is, then it sort of takes the starch out from their point now doesn’t it?
-Polaris
#180 Its not “pap” its called principle!
Look, change the tax law if you feel its unfair.
Your answer is called the Flat tax, Fair tax, or No income tax and strict VAT for all consumption
208 – polaris, are you recognizing that cost is a major issue if not the driving one? If you are then we have a starting point discussion, although not much longer tonight. I wanted to get out of here an hour ago.
#210 I recognize that it MAY be. However, the solution would involve solving this, which is almost certainly due to govt warping of the healthcare economy. On this, I think, we agree.
Thus further warpage (individual mandates) only makes things worse. Solve the cost issue, and you solve the free rider issue too.
-Polaris
#208 I have never said its not a real problem
I have said its a very small problem and proved it
one that certainly doesnt warrent massive government intervention
I have also shown with facts, and links etc how their so-called solution with the Individual Mandate is no solution and in facts makes their costs much worse
with or without an Individual Mandate you will never get to 100% insured in a free society
certainly due to govt warping of the healthcare economy. On this, I think, we agree. We do.
I would take it a step further and say that anytime there is a third party be it government or employer provided plan that shields the end user from the costs of the service that they are getting, the economic decisions the end user makes with regard to their health care are distorted, because they do not feel the full consequences of those decisions.
#174 Its it kind of ironic that those who repeat that talking point always advocate a solution where BOTH the decsions are socialized (ie government control) and the consequenes are soclialized
I advocate for solutions to that return us to what should be the natural state of things – the decsion are indivualized and the consequences are individualized too
#213 My point is that an individual mandate does nothing to solve this problem.
-Polaris
You wanna fix health healthcare? Ok make it so if you can pay it, you don’t get it. That’s probably the most libertarian solution to the problem. Forget the nanny state, make it the world of tough luck sucker. Any joker can get affordable healthcare under the current system, and if you don’t you are just plain lazy and should be naturally selected against.
215 – You may be right, the mandate is only there to make sure that everyone pays. But for the time being let’s leave this our of the discussion.
We agree that third parties regardless of who they are warp the decision making process. How does one insure that the end user of medical care make the rational decision both economically and medically? What do we do to or for the consumer that will decrease the escalating costs/
Can we have links supporting ???’s assertion that healthare was a top issue in 2008 and a top issue today??
216- bear with the discussion please. As has been discussed previously, at least in the US people get treated regardless otf their ability or desire to pay. The rule is treat first, bill and try to collect later.
218 – I would say the top issue after 9/15/08 was the economy. before that it was probably Iraq.
I do not seem to recall that it was the top issue in 2004, or 2008, or present.
I would concur Knova.
219 i dont really mean that, i was just saying there are mutiple solutions to this problem. Frankly i agree with you on deregulation, i was just irritated that you and pitchboy were getting flamed by the “if you aren’t with us you are against us crowd.” Just cause ppl hear dont agree with no change, doesnt mean they want Obamacare.
That was really my only point
O/T – so Bush’s Patriot Act managed to stop another 9/11 like attack. Do the Drats still want to kill the act?
#213 yes, ok we agree too
HC insurance should not be so dominated by employer choices
I want tax reform to place individuals on the same basis as employers
This is ONE good aspect in Wyden-Bennett
No Individual Mandates, set the conditions for people to make the correct choice on their own – this only empowers the government as its a pretext for there involvement as they get to specify what satisfiys the mandate
I am prepared to accept my small share of any free rider cost
Which will be much less in a deregulated market and one where individual have true control over HC insurance and HC choices
the ideal system we should strive for:
(1) ALL rich, poor, etc pay routine care from pocket
(2) Deregulated national market for FULL specturm insurance – allow people to buy anything from catesrophic to full coverage – price premioums on an individual basis based on age, etc
(3) For the exceptions with true uninsurable conditions – socialize these costs with a risk pool
(4) Medical courts run by HC professionals to detm malpractice cases – socialize costs with an award pool
none of this is in the cards right now
wyden bennett may be a start point if individual and employer mandates were stripped from it, however D would never agree to that
An individual mandate that is subsidized by the taxpayer would still shield the end user from the costs of the services,further distorting the economic decisions one makes.
No Tina as has been previously discussed and agreed, most people are happy with their healthcare and how it gets paid. The dems have made it an issue for political reasons. That does not mean that there are not serious issues that if they are not addressed will cause our present system to collapse. Because of the third party payment issues with American HC, most people are unaware of just how fast those costs are increasing and why.
That is where the present discussion I think is headed here.
223- Dude its the internet. I flamed polaris yesterday, we are agreeing somewhat today. We are all bi-polar here.
Well, I still would links about whether its a top issue in 2004, 2006, 2008, or today. You know my position on it, so I wil not repeat it.
#215 the mandate should be dropped by you and chek for the simple reason it doesnt work
the free rider problem will always be there – it is in MA and TN, etc
but everyone else costs soared due to taxes, fees, regulation
the mandate simply allow for too much government control
and its not truely 100% effective – thats the lie being sold right now by the left for it
They say “everybody pays in” – not true! Some still evade and always will – so we cede tons of power to the government for very marginal return
and we get MORE individual costs shift to us who are paying the bill
All right wylie: we are in agreement on 1,2,3 and 4. A regular quadfecta. Posted that two hours ago I could have been in bed now. I gotta drive from VA to Vermont tomorrow and I am gonna be real tired.
This healthcare debate is the new rail of politics – the fourth rail.
228 Nothing wrong with flaming ppl, i just get pissed at the if you arent with us you are against us mindset. Im a little late in on this argument though.
O/T 224 what foiled plot are you refering to?
CA has done a fairly good job at limiting malpractice costs. They restrict those awards.
The one in NY – with the guy that bought all of that hair dye.
It was on the news last week.
233 – sit back, you got some professional flamers here. But wylie posted something that I had to agree with, darn it all.
Basically, FBI was on to this guy all the way to last year. They followed the person to Crapistan. Patriot Act was key to nabbing the guy and breaking up the pllot.
One should only flame plants, pseudo-cons, Rinos (those that lack conservative economic beliefs), and the liberal D-rats.
Gosh, its getting really late here too.
232 – The problem is that it is being debated from about 10 different directions. I can understand the government intrusion thing beleive me I can. If one bill goes through, as a business owner I am going to hit with another tax to go with FICA. On the otherhand, costs are becoming such an issue that even businesses want to dump insurance onto the government. I don’t think that you can detach liberty from cost. if we lose the cost war, we will lose the liberty one.
I gotta go too.
Might post a little in the morning, but will be driving after that. If i don’t see you tomorrow, I will see you Tuesday.
238 oh right, idk how i forgot that one
Geez Knova…..you are my long-lost brother on virtually all topics but you are way off on this one. And stop calling people names because you dont agree with them. The “facts” as you put them out there sound just like talking points as well. Does EVERYONE speak in talking points EXCEPT you?
I totally understand your frustration with HC as it currently exists….but having the govt. mandate coverage or send people to jail in lunacy. You have to know that…..you are far to bright not to….
Again….stop calling names. It diminishes you. You are usually a voice of reason and sanity on here. Leave the name-calling to the morons on here……….like me.
Good night gang. I too must get up early. I put in 14 hours at work today – end of fy.
ok KNOVA, I dont want to be responsible for causing a horrible accident due to your repeated need to stomp me down lol
I think this discussion would be much more fun if all us HHRs get togetehr and solve over a beer
that way you could just hit me if you think i am outta hand
sometimes its much better that way
i do appreciate and enjoy a vigerous debate
however, I will never cede to the Individual Mandate
it doesnt work as a practial way to cut cost or even to get the responsible people to pay
politically, we have to target it and take it out of the plan as its the only way to stop Obamacare – as Polaris said, if we stand united as opposition we win
As a philosophical matter – its the hugest invitation to government interverition ever
Its sounds good like its “personal responsibility” but its not – its collective responsiblity in a clever digise
241 its also the reason why i am just waiting to get called a RINO someday, miss one talking point and you are toast
246 lol, what does it say when the leader of the free world picks Bud Light for his drink. I think that was a terrible presidential choice
#241 wouldnt that bill just come back to your business in the form off taxes?
wouldnt you have less business since your customers are being crushed by taxes too?
#241 we need to address TRUE underlying costs then
I am afraid that there is NO way to get around the population aging – that is a BIG driver of demand and there is no way around that
you must increas HC supply to keep up
you must force the customer to DEMAND of providers and insurance the best costs – minimize 3rd parties payers for routine care
to get more people in the insurance pot open up the range of policies – dont let the government reduce it thru yet more regulation
have a safe drive
#160 The Individual Mandate will effect you in many negative ways starting with a huge increase in the premiums you are paying
followed by higher taxes
followed by government regulation that amounts to rationing of your hc
and alot of your free riders will still free ride
read up on Rommneycare – you will see this happening
Making “people pay” sounds like vengence to me
you will get a small degree of vengence on some but not what you think
you envision an idealized utopia where all free riders that go away – this is ideological bs even with all government coersion in the world
your authoritarian solutio will come back on you and make you pay in many many ways beyond HC and your $$$
#136 I cited and linked the 1% cost shift – see CATO and Kaiser Institue WWW sites
Key Quote for Kaiser Study:
uncompensated care left to be covered by private dollars is relatively small compared to the $830 billion that will be spent by the privately insured this year (< 2%).The remaining $14.5 billion in
Key Quote for Kaiser Study:
“uncompensated care left to be covered by private dollars is relatively small compared to the $830 billion that will be spent by the privately insured this year (< 2%)"
Miyagi say individual mandate is a transparent power grab, a Trojan horse that is as clear too see as a cold sore on a prostitute.
Fundamental change indeed if such should pass, mmm mmm mmm.
I am going to help all you right wing wackos out on here cause we liberal have compassion for you idiots too even if you still are all too stupid to know it.
We are winning on HC right now
Here is my man Ben Nelson out pushing our new poll-tested talking points:
“Nelson said his primary concern is that any health care bill control
soaring costs. Without action, he said, costs will rise 9 percent next
year. The average Nebraska family insurance premium rose 69 percent from
2000 to 2007, he said. Wages rose 21 percent during that time, he said.
The result is that 225,000 Nebraskans, or nearly 13 percent of the
population, don’t have health coverage, and Nebraska businesses and
families shoulder a hidden tax of $1,000 per year on premiums to pay for
the uninsured.
Nelson held a similar meeting Sunday afternoon in McCook. He previously
held public meetings on the issue in Omaha, Lincoln, North Platte,
Kearney, Norfolk and South Sioux City.”
http://www.omaha.com/article/20090928/NEWS01/709289928
Doesnt this sound like we need an Individual Mandate to force all those people to participate in our new government run health exchange?
Yes, people will clamor to have the government push costs down.
We are winning – we have SNOWE and BENNETT and more on our side already!!!
Continue to wallow in your hate…..losers
I think we should start bombarding our representatives to create a law that requires a photo id to vote and for all government assistance programs a person applies for.
This is awesome!
11 States are working on passing laws or state constitutional ammendments outlawing Mandatory Health Insurance:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/29/us/29states.html?_r=1&partner=rss&emc=rss&pagewanted=print
Resist, resist, resist, resist baby!
Continue to wallow in your hate…..losers
Anyone else see the irony in that particular statement?
Where are the nomrmal troll crowd at?
Strangely almost non exsistant on HHR lately
#258
Now can we pass a law so that people will not be required to pick up the expenses of those who chose not to buy insurance.
More by Michael F. Cannon:
The most hazardous health reform measure before Congress is not the so-called “public option,” but proposals to make health insurance compulsory via an individual or employer mandate.
Compulsory health insurance could require nearly 100 million Americans to switch to a more expensive health plan and would therefore violate President Barack Obama’s pledge to let people keep their current health insurance. In particular, the legislation before Congress could eliminate many or all health savings account plans. Making health insurance compulsory would also spark an unnecessary fight over abortion and would enable government to ration care to those with private health insurance.
Obama adviser Larry Summers writes that mandates “are like public programs financed by benefit taxes,” meaning that compulsory health insurance would also violate President Obama’s promise not to increase taxes on the middle class. Under the House Democrats’ legislation, some middle-income earners would face marginal tax rates over 50 percent (before state taxes).
The experience in Massachusetts belies the claim that compulsory health insurance brings down health care costs. The “shared responsibility” ruse allows Massachusetts politicians to declare success for a compulsory health insurance scheme whose actual costs reveal it to be a failure. Massachusetts also demonstrates that compulsory health insurance enables, and ultimately requires, politicians and government bureaus to control nearly all aspects of health care and medical practice.
Rather than make health insurance compulsory, Congress should make it more affordable by letting individuals control their earnings and choose their own health plan from any state in the Union.
newsflash – you have those laws in 48 states for auto insurance they dont work
you still pay
you have the some laws in 5 states for HC insurance – they dont work
you pay much much much more
why do you ask for an impossible outcome and make such foolish choices
Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of it’s victims may be the most oppressive. The robber baron’s cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their on conscience.
C.S. Lewis.