ND: Hoeven Would Crush Dorgan

    The Republicans could have a US Senate without much of a sweat if they could somehow manage to convince Governor John Hoeven to jump in the race against Byron Dorgan. Here is a new poll from Scott Rasmussen.

    US SNEATE – NORTH DALOTA (Rasmussen)
    John Hoeven (R) 58%
    Dorgan (D-inc) 36%

    Byron Dorgan (D-inc) 52%
    Duane Sand (R) 37%

    This poll was done December 17th among 500 likely voters. Republicans need to start winning back some of these US Senate seats in red states (Arkansas, North Dakota, Montana) to prevent mroe of the 60-40 votes we saw this morning.

    Posted by Dave at 9:12 am
    Filed under: 2010 Senate - ND | Comments (276)

    276 Responses to “ND: Hoeven Would Crush Dorgan”

    1. Howard Dean says:

      Dorgan must pay.

      I’m tired of these communists coming from red states.

      Throw his ass out.

    2. bakerst says:

      so much for liberals being po’d at the health care bill; this is the top rated diary at the daily kos:

      when it is passed, it will reenergize their base.

    3. Brandon says:

      #3. That is written by Al Franken.

    4. Waingro says:

      43% strongly disapprove Obumbler on latest Ras tracking. Highest yet.

    5. OHIO JOE says:

      One wonders why this clown voted for Socialized Medicine.

    6. Phil says:




      What makes this number (46) even worse is that the really bad sample that knocked Barry down to 44 briefly fell off this morning. There should have been a slight up tic in today’s approval number.

      There wasn’t.

    7. Jack the extremist prof says:

      The NRSC should do everything necessary to lure Hoeven into this race.
      This weekend showed us that all democrats are the same. Ben Nelson in particular MUST pay.

    8. AlN says:

      From early this morning:
      I also apologize for my accidental cuss words last night
      Comment by Felix — December 21, 2009 @ 6:56 am

      I am sorry about McCain, he is not a wimp but his gang of 10 was awful
      Comment by Felix — December 21, 2009 @ 7:09 am

      Felix, apology accepted!! You are more humble than I expected. Now if only we could get Wes to apologize for his porn postings.
      By the way, it was the “Gang of 14” (not 10).

    9. bakerst says:

      #4. yeah, it’s wrtten by Franken, and it’s their top rated diary — meaning they’re warming up to the bill as is; the 85% part had to warm them up to it

    10. Phil says:

      Please, please, please run Hoeven.


    11. jason says:

      Rudy and Hoeven should be asked to run appealing to their patriotic duty. Two guaranteed seats would put a lot of pressure on the Dems to hold on to CT, IL, DE, and NE. If the Rs get to 46 seats you can bet Lieberman and Nelson will stop voting with the Ds in a flash.

    12. jason says:

      Hehe….Sarah Palin more respected (and less disrespected) than Al Gore…NBC/WSJ poll

      Why a wobbly turncoat hasbeen like Powell is the most respected by 1 in 4 Americans is a mystery to me.

      By the way, the full list of the most respected people is:

      Barack Obama 28

      Colin Powell 27

      Bill Clinton 21

      George W. Bush 17

      Hillary Clinton 14

      John McCain 13

      Sarah Palin 13

      Dick Cheney 9

      Al Gore 8

      Joe Biden 3

      And the least respected:

      George W. Bush 33

      Dick Cheney 27

      Al Gore 19

      Barack Obama 19

      Sarah Palin 16

      Bill Clinton 14

      Hillary Cinton 10

      Joe Biden 9

      John McCain 5

      Colin Powell 1

    13. Chekote says:


      I don’t click on every link that Wes posts but the few I clicked on were just pictures of pretty girls. None of them were pornography in my view. I don’t believe Dave would allow pornography to be posted.

    14. Chekote says:


      Yes. From the comments I have seen from several Democrats, they think the bill is unpopular because people have been duped by Palin to believe that there’ll be death panels. Once the bill passes – the Dems think – and people see that there are no death panels, they will like it.

    15. Chekote says:

      I think Pataki would be a better candidate for the Senate than Rudy.

    16. D QUIXOTE says:

      The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. Thomas Jefferson …


    17. Phil says:

      Yeah, because the people will suddenly forget all about the fact that it mandates higher taxes, busts the budget, creates a huge beauracracy, rations care etc ets. This to say nothing of the absolute corrupt deals buying senate votes with tax payer money from the other states.

      Yep, people are gonna absolutely love it.


    18. Brandon says:

      “You can count me as one pollster who thinks that an immediate post-health care Obama approval bounce is very unlikely.

      On our last national poll 97% of respondents who disapproved of Obama’s job performance said they were opposed to his health care plan. Why would its passage with no Republican support cause those people to go back to liking him? If anything it could make them dislike him more.”

    19. Chekote says:


      Read the WSJ article. This bill is a complete disaster. There is no way the economy will recover with this added burden.

    20. rdelbov says:

      Go Rudy and go Hoeven

    21. Phil says:

      Yeah, I read it. Excellent article.

    22. Anonymous says:

      Don’t forget Massachusetts has an election this January 19. A win for Brown would reduce the Dem Caucus to 59.

    23. D QUIXOTE says:

      Nothing but a commie will ever win in messoftwoshits.

    24. AC1 says:

      If only we could win in MA.

    25. Phil says:

      Why did Dems want to pass healthcare over the holidays? Because absolutely no one is paying attention. Even those that are the most political among the general population are preoccuppied with the holiday ritual – Evidenced by how dead even this board is.

      I hate Reid and company but their tactics are brilliant.

    26. D QUIXOTE says:

      Do not confuse brilliance with devious. There isn’t much brilliance when you have 60 votes.

    27. rdelbov says:


      I might add that Michael Jackson was poisoned over the summer to divert attention but who knew it would take so long to healthcare going.

      Then Tiger Woods took the big hit to divert everyone’s attention over Thanksgiving but Lieberman & Nelson held out so long that even the Woods story has played out a bit.

      So just as the American people’s attention is turning to healthcare its Christmas time-the greatest story becomes the greatest diversion.

      PHIL I am playing a bit with you. Calendar wise Reid has to get this puppy in place before the elections start looming, the economy worsens and things really go downhill for the democrats. Waiting to March or April, like Snowe wants, is not a political option for Reid.
      He has to move fast.

      In fact the #1 thought for just having the house pass this bill next week is the economic and Political calendar.

      The only reason for a conference now is that House members want to add their goodies plus the unions want Caddillac tax out or modified more. The libs will suck up on the public option and abortion.

    28. Chekote says:

      There isn’t much brilliance when you have 60 votes.

      Agreed. The GOP has done a great job stalling this for so many months and turning the public against. Just think about Obama’s approval ratings at the beginning of 2009. The Dems had everything. High approval numbers for Obama. Large majority in the House and 60 votes in the Senate. Yet here they are struggling to get the bill done and the only reason it is moving through is because of special deals being cut for Nelson, Landrieu, Bayh and who knows.

    29. Jack the extremist prof says:

      Massachusetts is a socialist’s paradise. No hope!

    30. phoenixrisen says:

      Senate Democrats telegraph to GOP how to torpedo health care bill?

      There are two strategies. One, Dan Perrin over at Redstate suggests that the GOP object to appointing conferees for the House/Senate conference. The idea apparently to have an up or down vote in the House counting on progressives and/or Stupak to torpedo the bill. This seems to be a decent option as Joseph Cao is likely to vote no on this bill so the GOP would need only two votes to turn. Stupak wields a lot of power here and his insistence on his amendment could wreck the bill very easily. The fight between progressives and Stupak would be popcorn worthy.

      The second strategy is allowing the conference. The idea would be that House liberals are anxious to throw the public option back in, strip the provisions that Nebraska and Louisiana got (Equal Protection Clause problems), and mandate abortion funding. Once again, the conferenced bill would then be put to the House and Senate again for a vote. If House liberals get their way, the Senate bill would be hacked to shreds. If the Senate bill gets messed with and the liberals get their provisions, Lieberman and Nelson vote against cloture. This scenario looks like a war of the Houses that could drag on for months. The closer the mid-term elections draw, the more desperate the White House will become.

      Personally, the second scenario looks a bit more appealing because it could drag things out. Public opinion of this is going to sink even further. However, the first scenario is a nasty frontal assault that could kill it all. Both strategies have their risks. Any thoughts?

    31. Phil says:

      Democrats are now saying their polls are going to rise significantly upon passage of the healthcare bill.

      I’m sorry. They can tell themselves whatever they want. I have no doubt that the MSM will hail the passage as truly “historic” while completely ignoring the hideous provisions. That is the advantage of having the MSM from AP to the networks on your side and it will help Dems on this a bit.

      However, I’m betting there is enough out there already on this turkey to prevent the public opinion needle from moving much at all. Maybe 3 to 4 pts at the most. There’s even a slight possibility that public opinion doesn’t move at all.


    32. Phil says:

      Phoenix, I think strategy #2 offers the best hope although its slight at this point.

    33. phoenixrisen says:

      #34 Democrats are delusional. People are pissed. Interesting thing going around on Twitter calling for a national strike on January 20th which happens to be the State of the Union address. I like the idea.

    34. Corey says:

      How did they get Robert C. Byrd into the Chamber at midnight to be the 60th vote? Are they dragging him around Weekend at Bernie’s style?

    35. AlN says:

      I don’t click on every link that Wes posts but the few I clicked on were just pictures of pretty girls. None of them were pornography in my view.
      Comment by Chekote — December 21, 2009 @ 10:22 am

      Not to hijack this thread, but I’ve seen nudity at least once (and Wes admitted it), and on at least another couple times, my employer’s internet server blocked Wes’ links, saying they were “Sexual”. Even when they weren’t outright nudie pics, they were sleazy — the kind of shots that would fit in Maxim magazine or in the Sports Illustrated Swimsuit Edition — NOT “just pretty girls”. As a woman, I would think you should be offended. By his posted links, Wes obviously only sees you for your body parts. Bottom line: these photos are utterly inappropriate for a conservative political website.

    36. Howard Dean says:

      Byrd was in a wheel chair.

    37. Tim says:

      If they pass the Senate version, it won’t re-energize me.

    38. Brandon says:

      “Just crunched our Bachmann numbers, she’s in good shape, out tomorrow.”

    39. Chekote says:

      As a woman, I would think you should be offended.

      Why would you think that? These are grown women who made the decision to pose for the pictures. I wouldn’t do it but I will not interfere with the right of other women to do so. I don’t regard Maxim as sleazy. As a matter of fact, I just sent a bunch of Maxims to our troops in Afghanistan. Sorry if you are offended. However, I do agree with you that we should stick to politics. An off topic link here and there is fine but when it turns into a full blown trading session lasting hours, maybe the boys can go to MD’s blog or somewhere else to do that.

    40. Corey says:

      Tim (from GA?), are you opposed to the Senate bill? Not liberal enough for you? Just wondering.

    41. Corey says:

      So, Chekote is a woman? I haven’t been up on the cast of characters here.

    42. D QUIXOTE says:

      Byrd was in a wheel chair.

      Comment by Howard Dean

      Was he breathing???

    43. Jack the extremist prof says:

      The democrats are truely delusional if they believe their poll #s will rise after they pass this travesty.
      That being said, i expect a slight bounce after Obama’s state of the union speech. Which of course will dissipate with time.

    44. Felix says:


      Tanner, Baird, Gordon and Moore. 4 past no votes who are retiring. Those are now 4 Yeas votes for Pelosi

    45. Howard Dean says:

      Was he breathing???

      Comment by D QUIXOTE — December 21, 2009 @ 12:04

      That is not a requirement to vote.

    46. AlN says:

      However, I do agree with you that we should stick to politics. An off topic link here and there is fine but when it turns into a full blown trading session lasting hours, maybe the boys can go to MD’s blog or somewhere else to do that.
      Comment by Chekote — December 21, 2009 @ 12:02 pm

      >> My point exactly!! And if we go off topic a little, let’s stick to things that are sure not to offend (football, weather, etc.)

    47. AC1 says:

      47-Moore already voted yes the first time.

    48. Corey says:

      I’ve been very offended by my team’s football performance week after week.

    49. Felix says:

      Phil, what if all of the 20 Republican State Attorney Generals grew a pair today, and all threaten to sue the US Government for the Nebraska Medicare Bribe?

    50. Felix says:

      Corey, Obama lover Lovie Smith is toast.

      Take liberal loser Cutler with him.

    51. Felix says:

      Ac1, my bad.

    52. AlN says:

      So, Chekote is a woman? I haven’t been up on the cast of characters here.
      Comment by Corey — December 21, 2009 @ 12:03 pm

      Yeah, Corey, she’s a woman — and YOU are a Canadian slimeball. WHY do you always come on here to razz us Americans whenever our government does something to make things worse?? When 9/11 happened, were you one of those out in the streets celebrating? Why are you so anti-American? If Toronto got hit by a terrorist attack, I doubt if anyone here would be happy — but you seem to be delighted whenever the USA has bad news (ie, this horrible Health Care bill)? What’s your gripe with America?

    53. Felix says:

      Hard to believe a 68 year old man like Ben Nelson, would want to face his maker with the blood of Abortion.

    54. Waingro says:

      Ha, Paul Shanklin’s Dingy Harry impersonation on Rush was hilarious.

    55. Brandon says:

      CNN tries to make a 42/56 split on healthcare something to cheer about.

    56. tina says:

      There are two Corys – one Cory and one Corey.

    57. Corey says:

      Everyone always thinks I am Cory.

      I don’t spell my name that way and I’ve never even left the U.S.

    58. Felix says:

      The Catholic Bishops are against the Senate Bill right?

      The 29 Stupak yea votes, will now have no cover?

      Will Stupak stab the Church in the back like Nelson?

    59. AlN says:

      Hard to believe a 68 year old man like Ben Nelson, would want to face his maker with the blood of Abortion.
      Comment by Felix — December 21, 2009 @ 12:12 pm

      We’re certainly in agreement on that! He sold out unborn babies for a political bribe. In a Christmas story tribute, King Herod would be proud of Senator Nelson.

    60. Chekote says:

      Great article on why Bernanke DOES NOT deserve to be re-appointed.

      Fed’s approach to regulation left banks exposed to crisis

    61. Felix says:

      Corey is my fellow depressed Bears Fan. He cool

    62. Felix says:

      Cory, is the assistant Manager of a Caribou Coffee in Toronto.

      A back Bacon Liberal Hoser

    63. Felix says:

      AIN, Nelson will rot in Hell

    64. D QUIXOTE says:

      Perhaps “corey” is being confused with the another “cory”.

      I forgot which one was cory/corey, the commie from canada.

    65. Corey says:

      Maybe I might be voting for Jim Ryan in Feb after all, now?

    66. Felix says:

      Brandon, I told everyone on this board last week, that Jim Ryan was not polled in IL.

      Quinn will be the Dem Nominee and Ryan will beat him

    67. Felix says:

      Corey, look for Bill Brady, Dillard to drop out soon.

    68. Corey says:

      I think those numbers speak more about the weakness of Quinn, than anything else.

      As much as I admire and respect Jim Ryan, and have supported him for years, I don’t think he would be the strongest nominee against Quinn. It is about name recognition at this point.

      And I have some disagreements with Ryan on a couple issues.

    69. Felix says:

      Incumbent Gov Quinn getting 39% in Obama Illinois

    70. D QUIXOTE says:

      Is Ryan’s ex wife 7of 9 ???

    71. Brandon says:

      I think Rasmussen realized he forgot to include Ryan and did a separate survey last night to include him.

    72. Corey says:

      Sorry Felix, Brady and Dillard will not be dropping out, and if I had to guess, I think both might finish in front of Ryan in the primary.

    73. Corey says:

      Jack Ryan is the one that was married to Jeri.

      Jim Ryan has been married to his wife Marie for many years, and they have faced many family tragedies (cancer, near fatal heart attacks, losing two children) together.

    74. Felix says:


      Jim Ryan will be the nominee because he was the one who lost by 3% to Sleazovich in 2002.

      Who was on the ticket with Rod in 2002 and 2006?

      Lt Governor Pat Quinn.

    75. D QUIXOTE says:


    76. Felix says:

      Corey my man, we agree to disagree.

    77. Felix says:

      “Twas the Night Before Socialism with Christopher Buckley in the House”

    78. Felix says:

      I have seen Jeri Ryan in person and she is absolutely Stunning

    79. AlN says:

      Everyone always thinks I am Cory.
      I don’t spell my name that way and I’ve never even left the U.S.
      Comment by Corey — December 21, 2009 @ 12:13 pm

      OOPS, sorry Corey (with an “E”). I guess I was really upset with the Canadian slimeball for coming on here celebrating last night at 1am. In reminded me of what you see in this 9-11 video:
      Was Candian Cory there celebrating with that woman at 0:04?

    80. Felix says:

      AIN, Cory will be not here the first Tuesday Night in November

    81. Corey says:

      Thanks for the apology AIN.

      Felix, what part of the state do you live in, if I may ask?

    82. Felix says:


    83. AlN says:

      0 A.D.: Israel’s King Herod kills thousands of Jewish babies in order to hold onto his kingdom.

      2009 A.D.: Nebraska’s Senator Nelson allows thousands of unborn babies to die with the hope of holding onto his senator seat.

    84. Corey says:

      I’m in the NW suburbs, Arlington Heights/Buffalo Grove.

      Since you seem to be in the 8th CD, are you supportingn any of the Republican candidates yet against Bean?

    85. tanda says:

      Don’t trust Nelson’s threat against cloture if bill is changed. He said without Stupak, he was a no plus he said several other provisions were enough alone to cause him to vote no. Then, he caved for basically nothing. Even the promises to Nebraska are useless. Future Congresses can de-fund them.

      Option #2 above is the best, but slim, hope. As long as the holdouts are a few representatives or a senator or two, they will resort to bribery and thuggery to get their votes. We need a group of 5-6 senators to let Reid know that they have fundamental problems that cannot be resolved with a few tweeks or bribes. Because it is a group, Reid and Obama could not bring all the pressure to bear on just one senator. There would be safety in numbers. Only way that happens is if there is a dramatic event, not necessarily health care related, to change the dynamics along with increased unpopularity of the bill.

      Otherwise, we need a Dem senator to become incapacitated even if it just buys time (in event governor is D). Death or Byrd or Johnson slipping into comas are the best hope.

    86. Corey says:

      And for the record, I don’t think Canadian Cory would have been celebrating on 9/11.

    87. Cory says:

      #83 – I’m used to being attacked here, but that sort of smear is really quite disgusting.

    88. Felix says:

      Corey I used to live in Mt. Prospect until a few years back.

      Bean voted for HC and is a liberal who fawns moderation.

      On paper she should lose, but the Soccer Moms love her.

    89. Bill D says:

      Last poll of the primary had Jim Ryan with a huge lead, all of the other Republicans have done a terrible job on getting their name out, Ryan will likely beat them just on name recognition.

    90. Corey says:

      Felix, I think Maria Rodriguez would probably the strongest Republican candidate against Bean next year.

    91. Bill D says:

      Here’s the primary poll,0,3551788.story

      Ryan had 26 percent of the vote, McKenna had 12 percent

    92. Corey says:

      Name recognition might really matter in a Feb. 2 primary, which could be very low turnout.

      But also, none of the local party organizations are endorsing Jim Ryan and he may not have the foot soldiers. Also, and this is unfortunate, I think we will see some negative ads run against him by other Republicans, which will bring into question his electability.

      People know his name and respect him, but I think his GOP support is pretty thin at this point. It’s really a shame he did not win in 2002. The state would be immensely better off now.

    93. Felix says:

      Tandra, it sounds like Stupak is more solid about his threats.

      Stupak as you recall, did not cave to Pelosi until the Bishops gave him the go ahead.

      Nelson talked to the Bishops before his vote, and told them to rot.

      Our best chance now is that Pelosi does not just bypass Conference and adopt the Senate Bill.

      If their is a conference, their is no cloture votes in the House. the voters will know who is a yes there.

    94. Felix says:

      Corey, I do not think foot soldiers matter in 2010.

      Ryan has not only name ID, but credibility in a GOP wave year.

      State AG carries weight, over State Senators and MCkenna.

      Blacks will be non caring in 2010, no Burris to vote for.

    95. Felix says:

      Corey, you are right. whoever the nominee, it will be a tossup against Bean.

    96. Corey says:

      “Foot soldiers” might matter more in a Feb. 2 primary. That is what I was getting at.

    97. Felix says:

      Bill D. right.

      In 2006 and 2008 Dem Bums like Tester and Franken won because of the Dem Wave.

      Ryan came out brilliantly and apologized for the Nicario case,

    98. GPO says:

      I think Pataki would be a better candidate for the Senate than Rudy.

      Comment by Chekote — December 21, 2009 @ 10:25 am

      I love Rudi- but I could see him not running after 1 term. Pataki on the other hand I think would stay as long as he could

    99. Felix says:

      Corey Right. Primary right.

      I never put it past GOP IL voters to screw it up and give us another Salvi or Oberweis.

    100. Bill D says:

      Corey, many of the local GOP organizations have been endorsing fringe candidates like Proft. Many of the local organizations do not do anything and provide no help. I have offered my information to volunteer for all of the local organizations in my area and I have not heard from any of them. It’s a little over a month until the primary and there has not been single negative ad against Ryan and most candidates do not have the money to run ads.

    101. Felix says:

      GPO, my guess is that the First Two weeks of January you will see mass DEM House retirements and GOP Senate Race announcements.

      The Blue Dogs in the House were praying the Senate would kill HC.

    102. Corey says:

      The Nicarico case would still be a problem, but there are others.

      I hate to think I could vote against Jim Ryan in a primary, as I have supported him through the years before, and certainly in his 2002 primary, where he was done a great disservice by the two Republicans running against him.

    103. Corey says:

      What county/township do you live in Bill D? If you want to say.

      I think the ads will be coming against Ryan after the New Year. Dillard has been running positive ads thus far and McKenna has just been focusing on Quinn, but if Ryan looks like he needs to be taken down, they probably are not going to hold back. That’s politics.

    104. Felix says:

      Corey, we have to put things aside here buddy.

      We need a GOP Governor to stop redistricting in 2011.

      We need to win to save our state from tax Hikes.

      Dillard, Brady and McKenna are sure losers in a GE

    105. Corey says:

      In my Township, which is the most effective one for Republicans in Cook County) no candidate for Governor (or several other races) received enough to receive an endorsement, but Dillard had the most votes.

      Proft didn’t do too well, thankfully, and Jim Ryan did not get a single vote at the session.

    106. Felix says:

      Bill D, the Al salvi, Ron Paul wing with Proft.

    107. Felix says:

      Dillard is backed by Jim Edgar, but he was too close to Obama in the State seante.

      Dillard is a good guy he will drop out for the team

    108. Corey says:

      I’ll come back later today to revisit this. Gotta run now.

    109. Brandon says:

      Another drop in Gallup, 49/46.

    110. Felix says:

      Bill, we need some state wide wins in Illinois.

      Ryan is not perfect, but we have to go with our best shot to stop the Mafia Chicago Democrats.

    111. Felix says:

      Brandon, how is Lautenberg doing?

    112. Brandon says:

      Supposedly he’s still alive. But with him and Byrd, you really don’t know.

    113. Marv says:


      49-46 is the closest spread in Gallup ever and 46 is Obama’s lowest rating yet recorded.

    114. Brandon says:

      Marv, I think he was at 47-46 a couple of weeks ago.

    115. Marv says:


      I checked the Gallup site and saw that it was 49-44 for 3-5 Dec. He’s not in good shape right now.

    116. Chekote says:

      Tester is on the Senate floor beginning the Dem spin that this bill is reform and that they took on the eviiiil insurance companies. So many lies….

    117. Phil says:

      CNN says Obama has gone from 48/50 two weeks ago to 54/44 today.

      Sorry, I aint buying it. RAS has held steady at 46 for the last week. I went back and searched the last CNN poll for crosstabs – found none so I can’t see their party ID then and their are no party ID numbers in the current one.

      I’d guess the makeup of the poll in party ID is differnt this time. A 6 pt jump based on what?

      Rescue poll. Also 6 pt jump in healthcare support. Again, opposition to healthcare temained steady in RAS just released this morning.

      MSM bullshit. See how they manipulate?

    118. Felix says:

      Chekote, Tester is gone in 2012. Rehberg according to Montana sites is going to take him out, unless Max “Tiger” Baucus resigns first.

    119. Brandon says:

      Marv, he was at 47-46 in Gallup for December 4-6.

    120. Felix says:

      Phil, do not worry. It will not work. The media cannot save the Dems anymore.

    121. Phil says:

      MSM pollsters will be tweeking their party ID sample to come up with their desired results. Count on it.

    122. Marv says:


      OK, thanks. I missed that (we were in HI on the beach.)

    123. Phil says:

      No, it will not help them on election day.

    124. Felix says:

      Ignorant Voters who are misled by the Media will not be voting in 2010, because the Messiah is not on the ticket.

      Independents will not be going back to the Liberals, and the GOP base is pissed.

    125. Felix says:

      Howard, hopefully Stupak will stick with the Bishops.

      Judas Nelson told the Church to buzz off

    126. Felix says:

      Phil, Brandon, not to sound naive, but could Hoeven be our savior.

      If He announces in Early Jan, will that sway Dorgan? If their is a conference, it can still be filibustered.

    127. Chekote says:

      The baton has been passed to Sanders who now is talking about what great things this bill will do. The spinning is on….

    128. Felix says:

      Sanders is a Aetheist

    129. Felix says:

      Chekote, it sounds like they will bypass Conference.

      They know it will not pass the House again.

    130. Felix says:

      Rahm emanuel is telling Pelosi, screw the public Option liberals, they are sheep.

    131. Bill D says:

      Felix, what happens if they bypass Conference?

    132. Tommy_Boy says:

      From December 4-6, Obama was at 47-46 in gallup

    133. tanda says:

      When is Christie sworn in? Can Lautenburg make it that long?

    134. Felix says:

      Bill, Pelosi can just accept the Senate Version and give it to Obama to sign, bypassing Conference and voting, since it won passage in both Houses.

    135. lisab says:

      i just heard on the news that massachusetts got 1.5 billion under the senate deal

      i warned you all this was just a transfer of wealth from the red states to the blue states

      secret deals made on secret legislation that the majority of the people oppose

      whatever happened to no taxation without representation?

    136. Felix says:

      Jim Webb is a traitor

    137. Marv says:

      #138 Tommy_Boy,

      Yeah, I saw that. I missed it at the time (on the beach in HI.)

    138. Tommy_Boy says:

      Obama’s improvement in the CNN poll is all due to Democrats and liberals.

      CNN is still running a comical D/R/I split.

    139. Felix says:

      Lisa, Nebraska is Red.

      I still wonder about the GOP Governor there

    140. Tommy_Boy says:

      “Just crunched our Bachmann numbers, she’s in good shape, out tomorrow.”

    141. Marv says:


      What is the D/R/I split in CNN poll?

    142. Waingro says:

      #135, Felix can they technically do that? Just goes to an up and down vote on Senate bill?

    143. Brandon says:

      If they bypass conference that means the House has to vote on the exact senate bill without any changes.

    144. Marv says:


      There has to be vote in the House, there does not have to be a conference.

    145. Felix says:

      Tommy, I only follow RAS.

      In 1986, Reagan’s approval was 65% and he lobbied hard to help the GOP Senate Candidates win.

      Result: The GOP lost 8 Seats and the Chamber.

      The damage is already done to the Democrats, just like Iraq for the GOP in 2006.

    146. tanda says:


      There must be another vote. Both houses must approve the exact same bill. So, if conference is bypassed, the House must approve the Senate bill unchanged or, vice versa, the Senate must approve the House version unchanged.

      If it goes to conference and a bill emerges different in any way from previous bills, then both houses must vote on the new conference bill.

    147. Felix says:

      Brandon are you sure?

      Senator Barrasso said today that Pelosi will bypass

    148. Tommy_Boy says:


      My guess is that the D/R split is around +11

    149. Felix says:

      Okay. I stand Corrected. Thanks all

    150. Brandon says:

      The House and the Senate must pass the exact same bill. If the conference is skipped, that means the House will be voting on the Senate bill in it’s current form. If that passes the House, then it goes to the President for his signature.

    151. Waingro says:

      Well, if Pelosi bypasses to an up and down vote on the Senate bill, I have sincere doubts it will pass. There are WAY too many people to please in the House within the Dem party, especially with the last vote passing by the slimmest margins.

    152. Phil says:


      Nobody knows and CNN aint telling.


      MSM. Don’t you just love it.

    153. Bill D says:

      Felix, will the house still have to vote on it? And is Pelosi the only one who gets to decide if there is a conference?

    154. Felix says:

      Democrats play dirty, because they are not Religous.

      Why have morals when you are Agnostic?

    155. Felix says:

      Bill Sorry. Many here say they still have a vote with no conference

    156. Felix says:

      Waingro, I do not trust them at all after Nelson.

      They are all like Stage actors, reading the Rahm Emanuel script.

      Stupak could full of crap, all a act

    157. Waingro says:

      Excellent post by Lowry at NRO: “Five Reasons It Might Not Pass
      Obamacare still may not be inevitable.” There still is hope, folks.

    158. Felix says:

      Lowry also said the Bill will not come to a vote in the Senate.
      Same with Bill Kristol.

      they did not understand the evil we were facing with Judas Nelson

    159. Waingro says:

      Felix, no doubt. It’s definitely a long shot at this point to kill it. But like he points out, the bright spot in all of this is the tidal wave in 2010 and (hopefully) 2012 that should come if this goes the distance.

    160. Felix says:

      Waingro, I think SCOTUS will be involved also.

      You cannot force people to buy Insurance.

      This is not the DMV or the IRS

      This issue alone will be gold for the GOP in 2010

    161. BayernFan says:

      I think it will go to conference. There will be some nibbling around the edges to please liberals, but the final bill will have no government option and no medicaid buyin. The abortion language will be similar to the Senate bill. And it will pass with a bare majority on each chamber.

      I have seen the light. It is all theatre.

    162. Felix says:

      I know Hussein wants this before XMAS, but this will drag into 2010 no matter what.

      The GOP can keep the issue alive by having state AG’s sue over the Nelson bribe and the Insurance Buying Mandate thu the elections.

    163. Felix says:

      Right Bayern.

      Bayh is a pig, and stupak is a patsy who will fold and given the right to vote no.

    164. Wylie E. Coyote - Super Genius says:

      Tim, your a liar or a fool if you think the bill is “toothless” – its a complete government takevover with only the name changed to hide what is going on…

      But thanks for doing your part to spread disinformation…

    165. Felix says:

      I still think Hoeven announcing could freak Dorgan

    166. AlN says:

      #83 – I’m used to being attacked here, but that sort of smear is really quite disgusting.
      Comment by Cory — December 21, 2009 @ 12:35 pm

      What is REALLY disgusting, Cory, is you coming onto this site at 1:25am and posting the following:
      “Motion passes 60-40. It’s a good day.”

      You did this KNOWING how we all feel — this is the death of what is good about American health care, and you celebrate! Swine! Thousands of Canadians (including my late aunt) cross the border each year to get superior American health care. Why? Because it’s better and doesn’t have the long waits. But now Obama and his accomplices are screwing it up, and you celebrate! Your celebration is only slightly less offensive than that Palestinian woman in that video. Only slightly.
      Sorry dude, but your hatred for America is so obvious!

    167. Waingro says:

      #166, agreed. Plus, the abortion language as is can definitely be challenged under Roe v. Wade, given the loop hole for states to essentially restrict it. That could actually open the door to Roe v. Wade being revisited with SCOTUS. There are alot of interesting repercussions in play here.

    168. Felix says:

      Wylie, over at Freerepublic, they are saying buy your canned goods, Lanterns, Radios, Boots etc……

      Its coming

    169. Felix says:

      Waingro, the GOP needs to stay on message and keep the crap in the news until November.

      Lawsuits to SCOTUS helps, but we need State AG’s to go after Ben Nelson.

    170. BayernFan says:

      My wife has already told me that she is going to stop taking medicaid patients. She was the only one in the county in her field to do so, and she feels bad about it, but she cant afford to do so any longer. This is another cost of government entitlement programs. They rob the human spirit of its desire to do charity and good works. Being able to do so ennobles teh human condition, and binds people to each other and to their communities in a very real way. Taking that away and putting it in hands of the government is basically raping the human spirit.

    171. Felix says:

      Bayern, make Bayh accountable.

      He is a Socialist, start a website saying that.

    172. BayernFan says:

      When the GOP takes over next year from Congress to state prosecutors to dog catchers, it needs to go full bore and start investigating and prosecuitng Dems for all their crimes. No quarter. We need a few indictments every week. Major players.

    173. D QUIXOTE says:

      How long will it be before the neo marxits mandate that physicians take ALL patients that walk through the door, and no longer discriminate against welfare patients? They have already mandated “equal access” for minorities, whay not medical patients?

      Involuntary servitude anyone??

    174. Tommy_Boy says:

      ARG: 47/48

    175. BayernFan says:


      This is the law in Canada, insofar as it is illegal for doctors to treat patients outside of the national health insurance system.

      Of course, there are acute shortages of physicians in Canada, especially in rural areas.

    176. Brandon says:

      #180. And that’s with a D+14 sample.

    177. Wylie E. Coyote - Super Genius says:

      What is frustrating is that there are even conservatives pushnig the lefts talking poin that “this is a boon for insurance companies”….

      This is a small point of validity in the short term as people will be forced to sign up or face the penalties….until they find how they can game the system and use “insurance” simply as medical welfare for when they get sick….

      However, as the huge amount of coverage mandates and price controls kick in, this will cause premiums to soar and the young and healthy will opt out leaving the insurance pool older and sicker…..thus driving insurace companies bankrupt or causing them not to offer health coverage….

      We see this “gaming” of the system in MA where one insurance company (Harvard Pilgrim) released statitic showing that a huge amount of their costs where paid to a minority of policyholder who were enrolled for less then a year…..

      People arent stupid and in about 10 years or so we will find less insurance companies in the market and huge premiums for insurance…\

      This is not some “guess” or PR spin like the left is putting on based on the “flat earth” thinking….they know that this will bankrupt private medical providers and insurance companies over time

      In just a few years in ME under this scheme they went from having 21 companies offering health insurance down to 2!

      The exact same ObamaCare/HillaryCare plan that the elites are imposing on us has been tried in MA and ME – they have all resulted in premiums soaring at annual rates well above the current national average, huge waiting lists, much higher taxes, and government rationing of care!

      So dont beleive the spin by the RINOs/KOS plants/DNCers – this is a complete and utter takeover and will result in us being dumped into a more overt socialist medical scheme in about 10 years when the government intervention finishes killing off private medicine and insurance!

      This lie about this being “watered down” is just to get the public lulled into accepting this (see the current bump in the CNN poll – probably due to people think this is OK now that it has no government option) and setting us up for stage 2 of the transition so that “the free market” and “the evil insurance firms” can be blameds….

      This is a short term ponzi scheme that is designed to implode private HC and insurance!

    178. lisab says:

      sic semper bufonidae!!!

    179. Wylie E. Coyote - Super Genius says:

      #182 You mean in the “Health Care Utopia” of Canada where its “free” and “unlimited” they have provider shortages!

      Why I thought it was all sunshine and free lollipops lol

      Geee, I wonder why people dont want to spend 10 years studying their arses off and getting 200K in debt just to get a job as a beaurcrat on a fixed income for da Man lol

      MMMMM, do you think the fact there are no doctors to see and huge waiting lists might result in a large number of people killed?

      I mean, is it good to wait for weeks and let that cancer you got grow lol

      This doesnt sound too “moral” to me…..course if you think people are killin’ the planet with their CO2 this may be a good outcome lol

    180. Felix says:

      Bayern, less credible guys than Hostettler won in wave years.

      Look at Webb, Franken and Tester.

    181. Tim V says:

      thanks to tm and Big Joe and other usefull idiots, we will all be forced to pay for abortions now.

    182. Felix says:

      The left is backing off already today on the Option.

      The left is so desperate for this to pass they will probably go with Stupak Language.

      Selling their souls

    183. Tim V says:

      185- i love it when you talk dirty lisa

    184. BayernFan says:

      Bayh’s dad was caught in the undertow of a GOP wave (1980). It was an unexpected loss to a young GOP Congressman named Dan Quayle.

      Next year is shaping out to be a tsunami. The GOP has gained 50 seats before in this century. Several times. In 1938 (81), 1946 (54), 1966 (47), and 1994 (54). It is due again.

    185. lisab says:

      Tim V,

      sic semper bufonidae!!!

    186. BayernFan says:

      Hey check this out… I think Jay Cost has been reading my posts!! vbg…..

      We might be on the verge of another Jacksonian moment: a time when the people awake from their slumber, angrily exercise their sovereign authority, and mercilessly fire the leaders who have for too long catered to the elites rather than average people. The first time this happened was in 1828 – when the people rallied to the cause of Old Hickory to avenge the “Corrupt Bargain” of four years prior. It’s happened several times throughout the centuries. Most relevant to today, it happened time and again in the 1880s and 1890s, as the people hired then fired one Republican and Democratic majority after another in search of leaders who could attend to the people’s interests instead of the special interests.

    187. Felix says:

      Bayern, they won big in the 1920’s because of Woodrow Wilson too.

    188. Felix says:

      Jay Cost is the only non liberal at that Chicago Obama loving site:RCP

    189. BayernFan says:

      “I cannot believe that killing 2,500 Englishmen at New Orleans qualifies for the various, difficult, and complicated duties of the Chief Magistracy.”

      Henry Clay on Andrew Jackson, February 1825

      “I see nothing that qualifies her for the Presidency”

      Chekote (paraphrased) on Sarah Palin, 2009


    190. Big Joe says:

      #188 Thanks TimV – I missed you too bro!

    191. Felix says:

      I just feel that the White House and the Senate have told Pelosi to adopt the Senate bill, the liberals will fall in line as always, and then will have Rahm send a Horse Head to Stupak.

      Obama will then threaten the Bishops by saying will will Push Gay Marriage and no tax exemptions.

    192. Big Joe says:

      Hey LisaB . good to see you . is this a reunion?

    193. BayernFan says:

      194…. Democrat hubris, corruption, and overreaching result in immediate big gains for the GOP in Congress. Combined with an ebb in GOP numbers. It is all there for 2010. It will take on a life of its own. Dont be surprised when the Senate flips, too. When the voters are mad enough to flip 8 seats, they are going to flip 4 or 5 more.

    194. dexter says:

      unless November & December were unusually cold worldwide, 2009 will be one of the warmest years on record:

    195. Felix says:

      Bayern, we could use some more Blue Dog Retirements.

      Steele needs to step up, and Croyn. Tell Rudy and Hoeven it is time to announce for the sake of America.

      Bayern, by the way, you are a true patriot. we will win the next war

    196. tanda says:


      If Stupak is added, bill must go back to Senate. W/o Stupak, will the pro-life Dems hold in the House and cause it to fail?

      So, calculus is 220
      minus Cao
      minus pro-life Dems who voted yes with Stupak but will now vote no
      minus progressive Dems who voted yes with public option but will now vote no
      plus Blue Dog Dems who voted no with public option but will now vote yes
      plus Dems allowed to vote no when vote was not needed but will now vote yes if needed.

    197. lisab says:

      “good to see you . is this a reunion?”

      what? does not everyone have off until January 2nd?

    198. lisab says:

      it is our “Winter Holiday Break”

    199. Tim V says:

      Bufonidae is the family of the true toads

      Big Joe, you are a bufonidae, just like tm in GA. It’s because of people like you that we are in this mess. I’m angry and NOT in a friendly mood.

    200. Big Joe says:

      Dang Lisa – I only get xmas day off , and new year’s too. boooo

    201. Felix says:

      Insurance index stocks up 5% today.

    202. Howard Dean says:

      GOP Considering Throwing in Towel in Health Fight

      By John Stanton
      Roll Call Staff
      Dec. 21, 2009, 1:07 p.m.

      Senate Republicans are considering whether to throw in the towel in their efforts to stall Majority Leader Harry Reid’s (D-Nev.) health care reform bill, a move that could mean the Senate completes work on the bill before Christmas Eve.

    203. Felix says:


      Gordon, Tanner, Baird all voted no and retiring.

    204. Big Joe says:

      Relax TimV. The Dems have dug their own grave.

    205. Felix says:

      howard, that is frightening

      If they do that, I will never give another dime to the GOP.

      We need to fight and not roll over.

      Make these pigs vote on XMAS eve.

    206. Tommy_Boy says:

      Pass the popcorn…Media Matters attacks PPP(D), hahahahaa.

    207. lisab says:

      “Big Joe, you are a bufonidae, just like tm in GA.”

      actually i think you mean he is one of the bufonidae or a bofu

    208. Chekote says:

      Cornyn and Johannis really hitting the “special deals” on the Senate floor. If the Dems think this bill will be popular after passing, they are totally delusional.

    209. Felix says:

      Howard, Croyn says no to throwing in the towel.

      He is the Senate Campaign man.

    210. Howard Dean says:

      Obama: We Can’t Treat Tax Dollars Like ‘Monopoly Money’…



    211. Felix says:

      Chekote, what do think Pelosi will do with Conference.

    212. Chekote says:

      Prevention DOES NOT lower the overall costs. It helps the individual but does not lower overall costs. If the Dems really want to lower cost then need to start banning fast food.

    213. Felix says:

      Baron Hill and Spratt running for Re-election.

    214. Chekote says:


      I think she will strong harm Stupak into leaving the Nelson language alone. The Dem leadership, Obama want something passed. As I said, once DeMint made the “Waterloo” comment it became personal for Obama. An egomania like him is going to make sure that something called “healthcare reform” is passed at all costs.

    215. Big Joe says:

      ribbit ribbit RIBBIT!

    216. Chekote says:

      That could actually open the door to Roe v. Wade being revisited with SCOTUS.

      As I said yesterday, there so much to review in this bill that I don’t see SCOTUS passing up the opportunity. I would love for Roe v. Wade to be revisited. It would go a long way settling this emotional issue.

    217. dexter says:

      201. follow up … correction:

      unless December is unusually cold worldwide, 2009 will be one of the warmest years on record:

      btw, I do NOT believe in man-made global warming; think it’s a natural cycle, and we happen to be in a warm period last 10-20 years; the map here is really cool … it looks like North Dakota ! may be one of the few places worldwide that was cooler than normal this year !

    218. lisab says:

      “ribbit ribbit RIBBIT!”

      that is not a good colour on you

    219. Gary Maxwell says:

      We are not in a warm period, even the warmist agree there has been no detectable warming in the last 11 years.

      And the Russians are now saying that the CRU cherry picked the Russian stations to show outsized warming, and since Russia is one of the largest landmasses on the planet, that is a big deal too.

    220. lisab says:

      “make the lie big, make it simple, keep saying it, and eventually they will believe it.” motto of the democrat party

    221. Big Joe says:

      I’m stuck Lisa – I’ll need one of Wes’s honeys to kiss me and return me to normal

    222. Chekote says:

      Harkins said that America will be turned into a Wellness society because of this legislation. Unless you take away the remote, wii controls, shut down fast food joint and make everyone hit the treadmill, Harkin will be proven wrong.

    223. lisab says:

      “the welfare of the people in particular has always been the alibi of tyrants.” camus

    224. Felix says:

      The Wall street Journal editorial Page is going hard at the dEMS today.

      These guys derailed Hillarycare and took out Vince Foster in the 1990’s.

      they have been soft on Obama, but now they are his most powerful enemy

    225. Felix says:

      At least the murderer Teddy Kennedy did not live to see this.

    226. Chekote says:

      “make the lie big, make it simple, keep saying it, and eventually they will believe it.” motto of the democrat party,

      They tried that with porkulous. Unemployment still surpassed 8%. I think this is the reason Snowe and Collins are voting with the GOP. They got burned once by Obama on porkulous.

    227. Big Joe says:

      #219 Check “It helps the individual but does not lower overall costs.”

      And therein lies the overall problem. How far do we go to help the individual? how much cost is acceptable?

      Its all about priorities and always has been. There must be a happy meeting place somewhere in the middle, too bad politics gets in the way.

    228. Felix says:

      235. Good point.

      Listen in the long run, the biggest winner could be McConnell for keeping Snowe in line.

      When this disaster hits with the new taxes and ruins the economy, the DEMS will own it.

      Collins saw this

    229. rdelbov says:

      Redstate and others completely misunderstood what Corker meant by changing strategies on HC. The vote is still on for Christmas eve.

      The only change may be on the debt ceiling. There has already has been a compromise to raise the ceiling only 320 billion instead of 1.9 trillion.

      There is talk of doing the debt ceiling this week instead of coming back next week. There apparently will have to be a raise in the ceiling by 12-31-2009

      Some in the GOP want to raise the ceiling and leave town til after the 1st. Basically adjourn the senate and more or less hope that the house will go conference in january. If they adjust the debt ceiling bill the house will have to come back next week to do the debt ceiling change. Then since the house is in town 12-26-2009 to 12-31-2009 anyway. Pelosi may just ram HC through.

      Some folks rant and rave without thinking.

      Then they never fess to their mistakes (like redstate) but always have a long memory of anyone else’s mistakes

    230. Felix says:

      Rdel, I am guilty of that also

      Erikson at Redstate is a flame thrower.

    231. Felix says:

      Rdel, do you think Pelosi will just adopt the Senate Bill?

    232. tina says:

      Listen in the long run, the biggest winner could be McConnell for keeping Snowe in line.

      I am choking…

    233. Brandon says:

      “Rand Paul is up 54-18 on Trey Grayson with people who think the GOP in Congress is too liberal.”

    234. dexter says:

      228. actually the last decade has been a lot warmer than normal:

      it is not man-made, but more important point is that in many areas, warming is/will be a net plus — the US Midwest, for ex., warming means signif. more agricultural output, esp. wheat output — I dont know WHY we are not making this point in the “global warming debate” ?

    235. ac1 says:

      Brandon beat me to it. What is going on?

    236. Brandon says:

      It means the KYGOP might be a bunch of morons.

    237. ac1 says:

      If Paul wins the nomination I am just going to start living to learn with our new overlords because our sid is too stupid to put together the coalition necessary to win.

    238. Felix says:

      Yes. Just hand the KY Dems the Senate Seat.

      How can we ever get a filibuster when Ron Paul and his nitwits sabotage us.

    239. Tommy_Boy says:

      That sounds like a net +13 for Paul there from Republicans who think the party is too liberal (assuming 40% of KY Republicans feel this way)

      This race looks incredibly close.

    240. ac1 says:

      I meant learning to live.

    241. Felix says:

      Can you imagine the media quoting Rand Paul with his anti Jewish statements?

    242. Felix says:

      Are the Paul’s plants for George Soros?

      they been bought off?

    243. ac1 says:

      These people are the same people who renominated Ernie Fletcher, so anything is possible. Paul had a spokesman who hates Southern Baptists, in Kentucky!

    244. Felix says:

      It is early Grayson will win.

      Will the rNC run ads against Webb and others over the Holiday?

    245. Felix says:

      right anne Northup.

      she would have run the Gov race too.

    246. Wylie E. Coyote - Super Genius says:

      #174 yeah, no more then 10-20 years at this pace – between socialsit medical care and hyperinflation and/or finacial collapse this is not sustainable….

      I think the only salvation is to stay focused like a lightning rod on the message of personal freedom, respect for individual/consitutional rights, free markets, federalism, and Consitiutional/limited government!

    247. Felix says:

      This is how the GOP should paly dirty and win elections.

      Let it be known that Rand and Ron Paul are connected with Soros.

    248. Felix says:

      Wylie the only way to beat these Agnostic Democrats is too play as dirty as they do.

    249. Big D (The only Republican/Libertarian koz plant) says:

      “Obama: We Can’t Treat Tax Dollars Like ‘Monopoly Money’… ”

      He’s right he already took care of the bank and real estate market. He has moved on to the game of life and is throwing that money around too. Obama’s version sucks, when you pass the square to buy life insurance, you have to pay immediately or you lose the car, spouse, kids and all your money. All the other squares force you to give money to the government everytime you land on it unless you land on the job “liberal lobbyist” at the beginning of the game.

    250. rdelbov says:

      I think there will be a conference. Nothing McConnell can do. Its actually all up to pelosi. She can try to ram the senate bill through and if that fails then go to conference. The House really is the Speaker’s house.

      I place very little creedance in partial twits on PPP polls.
      I think Rand Paul’s numbers greatly exceed his real numbers. In 2008 it was proven beyond a doubt, to me at least, that Ron Paul always under performed his poll numbers. In the early races he was up to 10% or more in some states. He never got there. Then sure when it was just him and McCain he did better but that’s almost like a “none of above poll”

      The Paul fanatics vastly overpoll in KY.

      I place very little credance in PPP polls of GOP voters in KY.

    251. Brandon says:

      #260. SurveyUSA showed Paul beating Grayson.

    252. rdelbov says:

      That USA poll had Paul beating Grayson by 12% in his home area of Northern KY. That’s about 1/4 of the state and Grayson won that area by 70% when he was re-elected Secretary of State.

      In fact that was the only poll with Paul ahead.

      The Paul fanatic poll guys. I have passed on political polls when time has been crucial to me. The Paulists poll.

    253. Wylie E. Coyote - Super Genius says:

      #258 Oh yeah, absolutely – you have to understand your enemy and what they are all about…

      These are hardcore committed authoriarians who arent bounded by coverntional morality or laws and will stop at nothing to impose their goals….

      My point is just this – you have to presentent a consistent alternative to their agenda of repression of freedom, consolidation/centralization of power in DC, collectivism, technocratic rule, and governement intervention….

      We have to make people understand that the government intervention/repression of freedom IS THE ROOT OF OUR PROBLEMS and MORE WILL MAKE THINGS WORSE!

      We must show that we dont suffer due to TOO MUCH FREEDOM BUT BECAUSE OF A LACK OF IT!

    254. Felix says:

      well, Rdel it comes down to stupak to save our country.

      He can be true to his faith and stand up to Pelosi, knowing he could lose his committee assignments, or he can announce his retirement.

      He is in a GOP district, so primary does not scare him.

    255. Wylie E. Coyote - Super Genius says:

      This author gets what is really going down with the socialist medical takeover and what are the REALLY IMPORTANT ISSUES AT STAKE!:

      “The debate should not be about $900 billion or $1.2 trillion or any factitious estimated figure that history shows will be off by a factor of seven to ten to twenty (see Medicare, Medicaid, and Social Security). It should be about health care, life and death, quality of care, rationing, government control of medicine, careers, and the ability to practice medicine without overbearing bureaucratic control of professional decisions that should be left to doctors and patients.

      Similarly, it does not matter if legislation emerges with or without government-financed abortion or a public option or so-called cooperatives (financed by government of course) or triggers that can be added later once there is a foot in the door for the government to control one-sixth of the U.S. economy. Those items and many more will be bartered by politicians later. They are all side issues. Remember, both the Senate and House bills provide for taxes, fees, and mandates almost immediately, with the alleged benefits scheduled to arrive three to five years down the road. This whole process has been completed behind closed congressional doors, with one party negotiating with itself.

      Senator Nelson’s decision this weekend to support Democratic health-reform efforts was frustrating, but not much of a surprise. It exemplifies the political maneuvering that the so-called Blue Dogs and conservative Democratic senators have perfected. They pay lip service to moderation, and when their vote is not critical, they often vote accordingly. However, whenever their vote is needed to make or break the liberal agenda, they always come around and support the party line.

      Even if Obamacare does not include a public option per se, it will inevitably lead to a single-payer health-care system. The bills call for well over 100 new government committees that will dictate to insurance companies what they can and cannot cover, who they can cover, and how much they can charge. The government will control all levers of the system. It’s simply “public option lite,” repackaged just in time for Christmas, with the political elite calculating that the public is too immersed in the holiday season to notice and, regardless, too impotent to stop it. This mutation might take a little longer to attain the Canadian utopia, but it still sets America on a path toward a single-payer system. This is the health-care model liberals have wanted for generations. It won’t save a dime, and will ultimately lead to soaring taxes, restricted access, poorer care, long waits, and rationing.”

    256. Brandon says:

      New thread.

    257. phoenixrisen says:

      #260 — I think the bill goes to conference. If Pelosi tries to ram the Senate bill through on an up or down vote, the progressive libs will howl. And then she has to take Stupak/pro-life Dems into consideration. She would have to count on all of them becoming Ben Nelsons/political kamikazes. If she thought the vote to get the bill passed in the House was hard, wait until this one comes around. Enormous pressure across the board and if the bill is voted down, it is a public relations defeat for Dems. Rahm is throwing the netroots/Kossacks under the bus trying to get this thing to Obama’s desk. This one will be interesting to watch play out.

    258. rdelbov says:

      I have numerous bones to pick with Erick at Redstate. I think about Jane Norton in CO who Erick has not quite decided to support or not.

      Where was Erick when Jane Norton was serving in DC under Ronald Reagan?

      Its fine and dandy to Blog and talk to people who are in the know in conservative circles in Colorado. Jane Norton was serving under Ronald Reagan when Erick was in diapers. When Bill Armstrong-Jane Norton-Bill Owen were building the modern GOP party in CO where was erick Erickson.

      I get a little peeved with internet commentators who are so sure of themselves but have flat out accomplished very little in their lives.

      I sometimes get the idea that he throws out these wild ideas or thoughts can he get phone calls or emails from congressman and staffers or candidates. If you do not contact me I will write bad things about you.

    259. Wylie E. Coyote - Super Genius says:

      #264 Stupak seems to have no issue with letting people die thru rationing of care…..why would he let some sematics on Abortion language stop him and his socialist buddies from imposing this takeover….after all its “for your own good”….

      And as you point out, his district is not exactly a leftist hotbed – this is one thing and one thing only: an a show designed to give him and a few other socialists skunks political cover for their inevitable YES votes….

      Or if the unlikely eventm that rioting in the streets occurs in the next few days or weeks, an excuse to bail on the D….

      Its only an exercise in saving their politcal careers vice the unborn….

    260. Phil says:

      Spratt is running again? These little drip, drip no retirement announcements are exactly why Democrats hang onto the House.

      Those of you forecasting 55 to 70 seats on this site are being entirely unrealistic. There are just so many winnable seats and Spratt’s district WAS one of them.

    261. rdelbov says:


      I could debate all day long about what will happen with this guy that NRO let write this story. He is in resident to be a doctor and was a fellow at a conservative think tank.

      That makes me as qualify to comment on what will happen in the future of health care as Barack Obama who a community organizer and a law school professor.

      I do not like his use of the word “evitable”. To me that defeatist. Bills and laws have been overturned. To say that this bill starts us on the path to National health care is 100% wrong in my opinion.

      100 government panels have to be funded. Every dime of spending in Obamacare is up for a vote every year as is every medicare cut and tax/penalty/fine subject to removeal.

      A mandate in the law today can be removed tommorrow.

      This Doc may know medicine but he don’t know politics.

    262. Wylie E. Coyote - Super Genius says:

      #271 Yeah “anything” can happen if you wake up with a pulse above room tmperature lol

      What is “likely” to happen based on facts is another issue entirely…

      The facts in this case support the doctor and not the politicans spining happy thoughts….

      We need to look no further then ME, MA, or other states that have these plans to see the likely outcomes….which tracks exactly with what he writes….

      It also is the only rational explaination of the D behavior as their is no other logical reason behind it given the polls and likely short term political outcome…

      Just tinkering with one provision or another will not abdicate 2100 pages of utter government nationalization by proxy…

      Its good not to be “defeatist” or to be optimisitic as yes, the unexplected can happen….

      But to downplay that now or promise something in 10 or thereafter seems entirely out of touch with reality….

      I would think we should be sounding the alarm and calling people to action to actions not saying “it wont be so bad we can fix it later”…

      Essentially, the doctor is talking about what is REALLY IMPORTANT and what the HIGHLY LIKELY OUTCOME IS not about the politics of the takeover!

      which seems to be the spin line today….

    263. rdelbov says:


      sorry my man but right here in TN we had Tenncare which was Romney. It was a total disaster and is slowing being dismantled.

      MA’s romneycare is tettering as well and people are absolutely looking for a way out. ME’s system is a like babylite of Romney care and is also a failure that is leaving the state for a way out.

      The state run system in MA has only survived because of federal help. In fact MA gets another big dose of federal help under Obamacare.

      I can count votes and the democrats have 60 right now. That had 220 in the house and I am sure how that plays out but I would not bet against the house voting Obamacare in.

      No Obamacare will lead us down the road to Nationalized medicine unless we give in. We may not be able to stop Obamacare but nationalized single payer is not evitable unless we give up.

      Saying we are doomed on nationalized if this bill passes is given up. I say never give up. Wylie you can quote some 1st year doctor in CT but that does not make it so. I believe that the GOP can beat and win the long term war. Obamacare is just another battle.

    264. Wylie E. Coyote - Super Genius says:

      #273 I quote the Doctor (1st year or otherwise) because he is correct….

      It reinforces what I have been saying for months…

      You are correct that states are backing away from these mini-CrappyCare plans…

      But that is what Federalism allows and was intended to do!

      The “interia” and entrenchment is not nearly as strong nor are the party ideologies nor those state legilators as removed from the people or their electorial wrath!

      Plus states cant print money or run up debts as they please like the Feds can….

      Just saying, since they are closer to reality a greater degree of responsiveness and accountability is natural….

      Getting this entrenched into federal law ala SS and MediCare is whole different cat to skin….

      Again, its not hopeless, but its very very high odds against it…

      Which brings me back to the same points:

      Act with greater urgency to defeat it now ie stoke public anger


      Have a long term plan to keep it issue number 1 and have a real strategy to repeal it ie kill the Individual Mandate in court to gut the plan leaving the rest a mess open to reform…..or something….but its got to be consistent and executable….

      The D would like nothing better then to change the subject, to well anyhting, let it get slowly entrenched, then revisit it in about 10 or 15 years when they think they will have solid majorities again!

    265. Wylie E. Coyote - Super Genius says:

      “Obamacare is just another battle.”

      No this is entirely wrong will cause us to loss the entire war against socialism!

      Sure Stalingrad was “just another battle” in WW II, but it was the dececive one!

      Germany fought on for 2 more years but the odds were huge against them!

      HC “reform” is the same way – this fundamentally alters the relationship between the citizen and the government in such a way as to alter the political landscape in the left long-term advantage….

      Acting like this is “just politics” or about “costs” is why many of us in the real world are increasing feed up with politicians of all stripes!

      This OUR freaking lives, liberty, and properity/propery at stake!

      Lose this battle and all three are at much much greater long term risk!

    266. lisab says:

      Sen. Whitehouse: foes of health care bill are birthers, right-wing militias, aryan groups